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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Black Powder Bores - what to do?
      #21703 - 05/12/04 08:00 AM

I've never really been interested in them, but have just come across a really, really nice Holland 500BPE, under-lever, hammer gun.

Definitely a "graded" gun with 90% coverage, etc. Mechanically the gun is "right" and everything is fine, good shape, un-monkeyed with, etc...

Except, OF COURSE, the bores! (If they'd only knew then what we know now - our forefathers in the double gun world would have taken better care of thier bores!)

They're not as bad as some I've seen, but for arguments sake - let's say I want them as good as new agian... what can be done with them?

I'm familiar with "up-boring" one calliber, but there's not enough steel to go much above the .50 caliber in these barrels - besides, there's not anything between the .50 and .577 cartride wise - is there?

I guess the big question is - is there anyone that reliably can re-line the bore & chamber?

FYI - They're fluid steel - not damascus.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Black Powder Bores - what to do? [Re: new_guy]
      #21706 - 05/12/04 08:36 AM

In reply to:

Except, OF COURSE, the bores! (If they'd only knew then what we know now - our forefathers in the double gun world would have taken better care of thier bores!)




What do the bores look like? Are they pitted? If not pitted, are the lands, and grouves simply rounded?

If the bore is pitted, then there is only one way, and that is to sleeve in a new set of barrels! Not cheap, I might add! If the lands and grouves are rounded then they may be the same as when new! Many of the black powder rifles were rifled with Henry, or Rigby rifleing, which looked worn out when new. This rifleing was very popular with target shooters of the late 1800s. The Henry/Rigby rifleing was designed to be used with paper patch lead bullets, and is usually quite accurate. I have a 500/450#1 Express Westley Richards double rifle that was made in 1892 with the Rigby rifleing and it is accurate with paper patched bullets. Most people don't know what they are looking at when they see the Henry, or Rigby rifleing, and think they are worn out. For that reason my WR cost me only $2100us, in it's oak&leather motor case!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: Black Powder Bores - what to do? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #21707 - 05/12/04 08:59 AM

I'm familiar with the "rounded" look of that era's rifling technology, but the problem (in answer to your question) is the pitting... just forward of the breech... here and there in the bore and just at the end of the muzzle.

it may shoot just fine, but i know myself well enough to know that this is a gun i would want bring back to near-perfect, so i'd want it sleeved.

Great find on your WR, by the way.

Question is, who sleeves them? and presumably it would have to be re-regulated?

When you say "Sleeve" do you mean cut off at the barrel block and mono-block in a new set of barrels, i.e.: traditional shotgun "sleeving?"

Or do you mean that the bore is drilled out (with the barrels left in-tact) and a new rifled chamber and bore soldered into the newly drilled hole?

Finally how much is "Expensive?"


--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Black Powder Bores - what to do? [Re: new_guy]
      #21718 - 05/12/04 10:40 AM

J. J. Perodeau sleeves double rifles. I handled a .500 Nitro that he had sleeved to the original caliber and it was gorgeous work. Yes, this involves the use of the rump of the original barrels as a mono-bloc. He also makes new chopper-lump barrels to the original profile. His web-site says $3,000 up for sleeving. New barrels are $7,500 up.

I don't know of anyone offering a re-lining option (cleaning up the chamber and bore and inserting a tube) but I imagine someone, somewhere probably does.

The problem with double rifles like this that really need new barrels is that it is hard to put them back into service condition without finding yourself upside-down.With sleeved barrels, it will never be worth as much as it would be with original barrels in usable condition. With new barrels, it will never be worth as much as it would be with original barrels in good condition. The price needs to reflect this and, these days, rarely does. A hammerless Holland Royal in .500 Nitro in the condition that you describe would still be worth some bucks and probably worth re-barreling. A Holland LOG (lever over guard) BP hammer gun in such condition needs to be priced at "give it a bowl of milk and it will follow you home".
--------------------------------


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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: Black Powder Bores - what to do? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #21723 - 05/12/04 11:06 AM

In reply to:

The problem with double rifles like this that really need new barrels is that it is hard to put them back into service condition without finding yourself upside-down.With sleeved barrels, it will never be worth as much as it would be with original barrels in usable condition.



Agreed... it's easy to spend too much on resurrecting one of these. I just hadn't considered this option before and wondered what it would cost to get the bores back.

Thanks

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Black Powder Bores - what to do? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #21724 - 05/12/04 11:11 AM

In reply to:

don't know of anyone offering a re-lining option



Nigel Teague is now offering this service for Shotguns. Great if you've got nice old Damascus barrels that you want to preserve.

Check out Barrel Restoration

Not sure if he would do a double rifle, but I don't see why not?

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pwm
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Black Powder Bores - what to do? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #21728 - 05/12/04 03:45 PM

sometimes pitted bores shots suprisingly good with jacket bullets, try the woodleigh 440 grains and see whats happen.
a new barrel set will make the gun not better in the eye's of a double gun lover.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Black Powder Bores - what to do? [Re: new_guy]
      #21765 - 06/12/04 04:14 AM

In reply to:

When you say "Sleeve" do you mean cut off at the barrel block and mono-block in a new set of barrels, i.e.: traditional shotgun "sleeving?"

Or do you mean that the bore is drilled out (with the barrels left in-tact) and a new rifled chamber and bore soldered into the newly drilled hole?

Finally how much is "Expensive?"



I would never reccomend sleeving a barrel full length in a rifle, larger than .22lr. The old barrel butts used as a mono-block with new fluid steel barrel blanks, turned to the same configuration of the origenals is the way to go. This can be done by several people, but my reccomendation, would be JJ at Champlin's, or D. Yale out in Yellow Jacket, Co. This should cost in the neaghborhood of $3000-up. A full set of new barrels can be had by JJ for around $7500.

Before I did anything, I would try to get it to shoot with Jacketed bullets, "if it ain't broke don't fix it!", just shoot it and enjoy the old war horse!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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SOUTHPAWTOO
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Reged: 04/12/04
Posts: 85
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Black Powder Bores - what to do? [Re: new_guy]
      #21801 - 06/12/04 09:22 PM

Dear Sir,
Inasmuch as you are here in the states, you might want to give Jack Haugh a call. He is a custom gunsmith of the highest order. His work is impecable. (prices are high but the work is perfect) He could re-llne it and prob even re-regulate. IF Jack can't do the work I'm sure he could direct you to someone of his caliber that would.
Good Luck, SP2 (Jack's ph. # 812-654-3209)

--------------------
SP2


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