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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Am I pushing my bullet too fast?
      #2153 - 23/03/03 04:11 PM

One of my favorite loads for plains game in my 375 Ackley Improved is the 250 grain Swift A-Frame at 2800fps. On nearly everything I've shot with it, it's been magic with two exceptions. The first involved a Warthog I shot on the run from no more than 50 yards. The angle was nearly broadside when I fired. The piggy was knocked down, but immediately got up running. I didn't have time for a follow up shot. The Warthog was found dead after a run of perhaps 30 yards. My shot hit it on the shoulder, but then the bullet turned and was found under the skin of the neck on the off side. I felt that this bullet should have given complete penetration, and exited.
The second surprise involved a Zebra that I shot from a solid rest at 130 yards. The PH, farmer, tracker, and I were all in agreement that the Zebra was almost totally broadside. I held on the point of the shoulder, and the Zebra took off running with the herd. We all heard the solid hit of the bullet. We followed the spoor for over an hour, when rain and darkness forced us to give up the track. We went back the next day, and found the stallion still running with his herd, but hanging back. We could see dried blood on the shoulder, and running down its leg. As it took off, I was able to get in a shot with it quartering away at a hard angle, and my shot angled forward and caught the left lung. It died within 100 yards. A post mortem showed that my previous day's shot had indeed hit square on the point of the shoulder, but turned, and exited the center of the chest. What happened? I've since found a load using 270 grain Barnse X coated bullets that drive at 2925 fps, and shoot into 3/4 inch groups.

Edited by mikeh416Rigby (25/03/03 07:05 AM)

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SafariHunt
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Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 468
Loc: Pretoria RSA
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #2417 - 19/04/03 07:38 PM

Mike,

Yes I would think you are pushing the bullets too fast and the barnes X bullets is not going to fix your problems. I had a client last year with a 300 RUM and barnesX bullets 180 grain at 3200 fps on maybe only the eland out of the 8 animals he shot did the bullet open up on the rest of the animals the bullets folded in not opening up.

If I was you I would maybe opt for a heavier bullet to slow down the speed and make sure on penetration and the line. I know you don't have easy access to Rhino bullets but I bought a couple of boxes for CCHunter to give to him end this month 380 grainers. The owner of the shop showed me two bullets one recovred from a blue wildebeest and the other from an eland they expaned perfectly with making a diameter almost 3 times the bullet size and that was at 2200 fps. I'm sure you would be able to push those 380 grainers at 2350 jps and that is perfect bushveld velocity.

Maybe you could try the 350 grainer from woodleigh as well. I would say either use a heavier bullet or slow down your loads to 2600 fps at 2600 fps you are looking at only 10-12" drop at 250 yards roughly, with a 300 grain bullet. And how many shots are you going to take at 200 yards ? Bullets do weird things if you push them that is why even BarnesX guaraantee their performace at max of 2800 fps.

--------------------
"Sleeping under the African sky I can see nothing wrong with this world!"

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mikeh416Rigby
.450 member


Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: SafariHunt]
      #2432 - 20/04/03 10:54 PM

Over the past few months I've been corresponding with a guy who works in the lab at Leupold Scopes, and he, as well as 3 of his co-workers who shoot the 375 Ackley have settled on the following load: 90 grains of H4350 pushing the 270 grain Barnes XLC at an average speed of 2914 fps. NOTE- this is with the XLC (COATED BULLET) ONLY! . Any other bullet will drive the pressures sky high. It averages 3 shot groups under 3/4 inch. This obviously is a compressed load, and needs a 6 inch drop tube, and a vibrating jewelry cleaner to make this happen. Bullets are set .010" off the lands. He sent me some pictures of bullets recovered from American Bison, and also Cape Buffalo. The photos looked just like the advertisements. On the one recovered from the Bison, he said the shot was taken from a quartering away angle, and the bullet smashed the shoulder socket on the far side. The retained weight was 260 grains, and the expansion was just perfect, as were the bullets recovered from the Buffalo. He goes on to say that with the XLC BULLET in this caliber, you can't get enough H4350 powder in the case to drive up pressures to a dangerous level. I've tried this load in my 375 Ackley Improved, and I'm finding the same thing. In my Winchester Model 70 with a 24" barrel, I'm averaging 2897 fps 10' from the muzzle. Can't wait to give this a try on Buffalo, and plains game as well. I mean, think about it-a 270 bullet that shoots about as flat as a 7mm magnum . Who could ask for more?

Edited by mikeh416Rigby (20/04/03 10:57 PM)

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: SafariHunt]
      #87082 - 14/10/07 02:42 AM

I'm real interested in what velocities you can drive a 350g Woodleigh with reasonable pressure. It seems like the 375 Ackley Imp and the 350g bullet would be a perfect match, maybe 2550 fps? I've seen load data where the 375 H&H drives them to 2350.

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
Loc: United States
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: chuck375]
      #87988 - 30/10/07 03:49 AM

Yup, too fast.
I think you'll like the Barnes.

Me....... I love my old fashoned 375H&H.

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #88030 - 31/10/07 02:56 AM

Having used A-Frames almost exclusively for the past 5 years--I disagree that it is too fast--I shot close to 60 African plains game using 180 gr A-Frames--or 400Gr A-Frames---with no problems what so ever--I am pushing the 180's out of a ultra-mag at 3400 fps--the 400's are factory and hand loads at 2450 to 2500 fps-shot everything from duiker to Cape Buffalo with Eland and Zebra in between..

Not sure what is going on with your 2 situations--I would call Swift and talk to the owner--they are very helpful and I am sure they would be interested in your problems.

As to the warthog--I shot one with my .416 at about 100 yards facing me--he turned and ran after the shot--didn't go far but the bullet was found under his left cheek--so it traveled from stem to stern--bullet mushroomed perfectly and retained about 96% of its original weight..

thx

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: SafariHunt]
      #88117 - 01/11/07 06:11 AM

Quote:

... and the barnes X bullets is not going to fix your problems. I had a client last year with a 300 RUM and barnesX bullets 180 grain at 3200 fps on maybe only the eland out of the 8 animals he shot did the bullet open up on the rest of the animals the bullets folded in not opening up.



Not an uncommon performance for that bullet at all, and was my observation of it as well. What cracks me up is that when such results are reported about X's, they're treated as rare, freak occurrances or written off as BS (the apologists virtually always claim that it must have been a squib load)...but when there's a minor problem with a true premium bullet, like the A Frame or Weldcore, it's considered proof that only mono-metals are reliable. What a joke. A good friend hunted elephant and plains game earlier this year with Chris Collins, a well-known, older Botswana PH. When he asked Chris what bullets to bring, he got only a single specific recommendation: "Please don't bring Barnes."

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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chuck375
.333 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #88184 - 03/11/07 12:19 AM

The Swift A-Frame has an awesome reputation, if it won't penetrate in a straight line for you, I don't know what will. I guess I'd recommend going to the 300g A-Frames, or the 300g North Fork. You can probably easily get 2700 fps out of the North Fork. I wouldn't go any faster than that. A little less velocity, and more sectional density is probably just the prescription.



Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

Edited by chuck375 (03/11/07 12:20 AM)

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #89129 - 17/11/07 01:08 AM

Quote:

Over the past few months I've been corresponding with a guy who works in the lab at Leupold Scopes, and he, as well as 3 of his co-workers who shoot the 375 Ackley have settled on the following load: 90 grains of H4350 pushing the 270 grain Barnes XLC at an average speed of 2914 fps. NOTE- this is with the XLC (COATED BULLET) ONLY! . Any other bullet will drive the pressures sky high. It averages 3 shot groups under 3/4 inch. This obviously is a compressed load, and needs a 6 inch drop tube, and a vibrating jewelry cleaner to make this happen. Bullets are set .010" off the lands. He sent me some pictures of bullets recovered from American Bison, and also Cape Buffalo. The photos looked just like the advertisements. On the one recovered from the Bison, he said the shot was taken from a quartering away angle, and the bullet smashed the shoulder socket on the far side. The retained weight was 260 grains, and the expansion was just perfect, as were the bullets recovered from the Buffalo. He goes on to say that with the XLC BULLET in this caliber, you can't get enough H4350 powder in the case to drive up pressures to a dangerous level. I've tried this load in my 375 Ackley Improved, and I'm finding the same thing. In my Winchester Model 70 with a 24" barrel, I'm averaging 2897 fps 10' from the muzzle. Can't wait to give this a try on Buffalo, and plains game as well. I mean, think about it-a 270 bullet that shoots about as flat as a 7mm magnum . Who could ask for more?


Mike,
I've had good performance from Barnes X bullets over many years.
I will be keen to hear how those 270 grainers perform on buffalo!

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jro45
.300 member


Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: 4seventy]
      #89278 - 19/11/07 11:57 AM

I didn't know that the Ackly could shoot that fast but it not how fast the bullet going but it is where the bullet enters witch is what happened to you.

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escard
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Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 158
Loc: austria-europe
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: jro45]
      #90864 - 07/12/07 06:22 PM

the barnes-x (TSX) as well as the swift A-frame bullets BENEFIT from velocity, the problem that some guys have with turning, not straight penetrating bullets could as well result from a twist that doesn´t correlate with that bullet...
the woodleighs are of course well made bullets - that do not go nearly as deep as the above mentioned ones...

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gator
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Reged: 03/12/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Florida
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: escard]
      #90977 - 09/12/07 02:19 AM

Hi, I load the Barnes X in my 375 H&H and it goes off at about 2800fps.

Had the same thing happen on a few hits. The bullet would just take a very strange path.

What I think is happening, and this is just a though is that the "x" is opening up and has one leaf opening slightly ahead of the others.

I don't think it's speed, because it only happens occationally. On one of them it looked like the bullet core was off center.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: gator]
      #90981 - 09/12/07 02:29 AM

Gator
Have you contacted TY at Barnes?? He is very knowledgable and helpful--curious as to what his take would be on that--I have never experienced that on my loads however I don't use the Barnes product as much as Swifts..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: Ripp]
      #91228 - 11/12/07 10:31 AM

Mike
Maybe it is just that sometimes bullets do strange things.

ie. bullets behaving badly.

That is what I used to think.

And sometimes that must happen.

However...

After having 3 Safaris videoed.

Now I have a new answer, not a theory, but an actual proven reason, why "things sometimes do not go as they should".

It is very simple actually, but I would not have beleived how it happened, except it was filmed, and could be played back in slow motion.

Simply stated the animal is moving before the bullet strikes him.

Several of the animals I shot moved before the bullet impacted them. I as the hunter aiming at them, sometimes with a scope, did not detect this movement.

Just think how a slight difference in the animals position to the shooter can change the bullet impact location and thus its path.

So it may not be the bullet turning, but the animal moving before impact.

It is on my videos several times.

It seems Zebra are especially "good at it".

In fact I do not recommend that you shoot at a Zebra facing and looking at you.

They have the "Matrix" move down pretty good.

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gator
.224 member


Reged: 03/12/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Florida
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: NE450No2]
      #91242 - 11/12/07 01:29 PM

Well in my case, I can think of one time in particular that the bullet took one of those strange paths, and the buffalo definitely didn't pull a matrix move.

Though it is a thought, to send the bullet into Barnes. I think I still have it around some where.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Am I pushing my bullet too fast? [Re: SafariHunt]
      #121650 - 20/12/08 03:45 PM

Quote:

I had a client last year with a 300 RUM and barnesX bullets 180 grain at 3200 fps on maybe only the eland out of the 8 animals he shot did the bullet open up on the rest of the animals the bullets folded in not opening up.




Any chance of some photos of these "folded in" X bullets?
Thanks

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