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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40266
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: tophet1]
      #226119 - 28/02/13 08:53 PM

Quote:

I always carefully watch commercial videos of double rifle users shooting the big stuff. An aweful lot look very clean and I wonder how long the rifle has been out of the gun bag.




You summed it up yourself .... "commercial videos ...".

I reckon a lot of those commercial video bolt actions are straight out of the sponsoring manufacturers cardboard carton as well from the looks of them.

A fact is a lot of double rifle owners baby their rifles, they aren't some ugly plastic stock stainless steel POS rifle used for bush bashing.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #226129 - 28/02/13 10:27 PM


"A fact is a lot of double rifle owners baby their rifles,"


Yes, all wuld look after, some would baby but can I say

1. When carrying a DR over long distances, it doesn't look
that bad at the end of it unless you fall over in the mud.

2. Any nicks, dent, scratches aren't likely to show up
on a video.


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brosteve
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Loc: TX USA
Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #226263 - 02/03/13 02:19 PM

It's a wonder there aren't quality, and well balanced bolt action shotguns out there--so the gun you use for the most shots hunting everything has the same action type. That would make it second nature, as I suppose it is also second nature for those who hunt with both shotgun and pump action rifles.I agree with whoever said previously that the English had an easy transition from double shotgun to double rifle, since both were alike. Still, I have seen some mighty fast shooting videos where European hunters were getting off quick shots at driven boar and red stags. Some of them almost had to be straight pull rifles, or I am even more impressed. Also, my Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles are extremely well-balanced for an offhand shot. At the end of the day, I will say this: I felt really claustrophobic with a bolt gun and leupold scope set at 1 1/2 power when a Zimbabwe buff was bearing down and crackling through the thick brush and I couldn't even see him. I sure wanted an open-sighted double then! Fortunately, he turned, along with his friend, who was coming along for the ride... Steve

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Claydog
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: brosteve]
      #226270 - 02/03/13 04:23 PM

To me the double vs bolt debate is a matter of personal preference. I think what is much more serious is the number of guys I have seen using big bores on game that just can't handle them regardless of what style of rifle they come from.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #226532 - 07/03/13 05:19 AM

I posted this before and had to delete it because for some reason the word program I was using scattered the sentences so badly that it was very hard to read. I’ll try it again and see if it will work better this time!

Someone above stated that four rounds can be fired in under 10 seconds and that is true, but 10 seconds for four shots from a double rifle is very slow. And in a real determined charge of a cape buffalo starting from about 25 yds is likely to get someone hurt or killed.

This debate about speed of AIMED shots on target from 25 yds to muzzles in a charge has been around as long as bolt and doubles have been used for stopping dangerous game animals. Nothing I will say here will change the minds of those who believe the way they do.

The PH licensing departments of several southern African countries have found that the double rifle shooter is at no disadvantage to a man with a bolt rifle for four shots as to time, and accuracy. They thought there was a disadvantage so they decided to have the bolt rifle guys load one in the magazine, and one in the chamber for timing a charge stopping target. They found the double was faster and in most cases more accurate on the target.

SO! They decided to let the bolt guys load one in the chamber, and three down, and the double rifles guys load both barrels, with a re-load in the middle for shots three and four. They found that even then the double was faster and more accurate on the target for four shots. The found the first two shots were much faster, and more accurate in timed shooting, and with the over all sequence of the four shots, shot three was about equal in time with the bolt rifle, but shots one two and four was way ahead of the bolt.

Because of this debate, and the findings of the PH school’s findings we at DRSS decided to do a simulated charge stopping competition with many shooters who have done a lot of shooting on big game in Africa and Alaska.

The set-up was 10 shooters shooting at a time, with 20 shooters total, each being individually timed with a digital stop watches. Timing starts when the shooter fires his first shot, and stops when he fires the last of four shots. The rifles are loaded with one in the chamber, and three down in the bolt rifles, and both chambers loaded in the doubles, with a re-load for shots three and four.

The 8 inch black target with a 2 inch white 10 ring center were set up at 25 yds. The possible total score was 40 points if all four hit the 2 inch 10 ring. Any shot that missed the 8 inch black was not counted though a shot close to that black would still be in the kill zone on a buffalo.

The findings were that the bolt rifle was generally slower and less accurate for speed shooting of four shots. The ones that came close with a bolt rifle, lost because one or more of their shots missed the black, and were still slower than most of the double rifle shooters.

When the shooting was over the targets were checked, and the times were listed by the timer on each shooter’s target. I can’t say what the times were for the two shooters who beat me, but my four shots tallied 36, of a possible 40 points and the four shots were fired in four seconds flat! The time could have been faster if I had not forgotten that the double I was shooting had an auto safety that re-sets when the rifle is opened for the re-load of three and four shots. I tried to fire shot three with the safety on, and had to release the safety and pull the trigger again for the third shot! If not for that safety, my time may have shaved off another second, and if I had been trying to stop a lion or Buffalo that extra second could have cost me my life. That rifle had selective ejectors, but my 470NE Merkel has a manual safety, and extractors with a little more recoil that the 9.3X74R Merkel, but weighs 3 pounds more, and I can get four shot off with that rifle just over four seconds all on target.

When I mentioned this safety issue in a report of on the Merkel rifle on the Accurate Reloading forum I was taken to task for not having removed the auto feature of the safety that I had owned for almost ten years, by one of your mates here on Nitro Express, (4seventy here, and 5seventy on AR).

This was because I have always recommended to others a manual safety or to disengage the auto feature on any double rifle used on dangerous game. 4seventy was right, I should have modified it. In fact I still see no need for an auto safety on any rifle but especially one used for dangerous game. Bolt rifles are not fitted with auto safeties so that it re-sets every time the bolt is worked, so why should it be fitted on a double rifle so it re-sets when the rifle is opened for any reason? It is my belief, re-enforced by my experience with the auto safety in the hot competition that a manual safety is a better way.

That being said, I did not remove the auto feature of the safety on that rifle, though I had always recommended it to others. Procrastination is my only excuse for not modifying the safety on this rifle. Because this was not my primary dangerous game double, I simply didn’t change the safety. That was my bad, please do not make the same mistake with a lion or buffalo closing fast on you to do you harm!

This post will not change the minds of most because a strong belief is a hard thing for one to dismiss. However it may make some think about the fact that their belief may be flawed before it gets tested by a bite&stomp!





--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Morten
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #226560 - 07/03/13 07:51 PM

@ Duggaboy1

that was most interesting!!! thank you very much.


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Alaskaman11
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Reged: 11/01/13
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Loc: Alaska
Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Morten]
      #226615 - 08/03/13 01:28 PM

Quote:

@ Duggaboy1

that was most interesting!!! thank you very much.




Without a doubt that's probably the most informative section I've seen here so far. Interesting about the Time with reloads versus time on target.


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Daman
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Reged: 29/11/11
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Loc: Southeast USA
Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #229215 - 23/04/13 02:35 AM

The most dangerous thing I have hunted is wounded boar hogs, but even with whitetail deer or hogs I don't admire my shots! If it's running I put bullets in it until it drops or I can no longer see it. I hope to hunt grizzly and cape buff one day and intend to do the same then.

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Daman
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Claydog]
      #229216 - 23/04/13 02:43 AM

Quote:

To me the double vs bolt debate is a matter of personal preference. I think what is much more serious is the number of guys I have seen using big bores on game that just can't handle them regardless of what style of rifle they come from.




I see this often with big bore revolvers in my area. I shoot a lot of 41 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 Colt +P, and 454 Casull. For some unknown reason, all my buddies have to shoot them, can't come close to hitting the target because they are flinching so bad, and then go buy one. Makes no sense to me. They would be much better served with a 357 Mag they could handle.

The same goes for rifles, if you are scared of it you are not going to shoot it well.


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