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mauserand9mm
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500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock
#209293 - 28/05/12 01:19 PM

My Merkel has developed a rattle in the buttstock. I haven't investigated this yet but suspect it may have a recoil reducer installed. It's a model 140A (I think) - did they come original with the reducer fitted? I bought the rifle second hand.

It doesn't seem to be end-to-end but more side-to-side rattle, which means it's loose but not sliding backwards and forwards much (yet).

I presume that it shouldn't take too much to hold the reducer in position. I've heard people use epoxy or even expanding foam but these sound to be at either extreme (ie from semi-permanent to slowly destructing). Any suggestions on how to otherwise hold in position?

(Another issue - After our BGR match, for which ejection worked perfectly, I went on to fire the remaining 6 rounds for practice and did so by single loading but firing from alternate barrels, and I noticed the RH ejector would "uncock" after firing the LH barrel and opening the action - I noticed both ejectors sticking out the same amount. Normally the ejector on the unfired barrel doesn't actually eject or stick out as far as the one that has ejected. This happened some time ago and resulted in a fail to eject - I used lubrication to fix it that time. I guess that there must be a catch that jams up when it loses oil. I would like to maybe file/sand to help with this issue but am terrified of pulling apart the ejection components in the forestock without any instructions. I can imagine springs making noises as they bounce around the loungeroom. Anyone have instructions on how to do this?)

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Ben
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: mauserand9mm]
#209294 - 28/05/12 01:40 PM

Ah, yes! I know exactly what it is. I had the same happen to mine. I didn't have the knowledge or skill or confidence to take it out and fix it myself, so I sent it down to John Clapham, the Merkel service rep in Australia, and he worked his magic on it and sent a note off to Merkel about it, for them to be aware of the problem in the future. They do come new with it. From memory, whilst the rest of the rifle is made very well, there was an issue with the assembly of the recoil reducer. For peace of mind, I would send it to John Clapham or Alex Beer. I don't know about the second problem you've encountered.

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CptCurl
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: Ben]
#209322 - 28/05/12 10:30 PM

You have the same problem with your recoil reducer as I had with mine. My Merkel .500NE had a round steel bar in the butt to add weight and balance. It was held in by a steel tab screwed to the weight and screwed to the wood with one small wood screw. Recoil caused my wood screw to work loose. I replaced the attachment tab with a heavy piece of steel flatbar and replaced the wood screw with a much larger lag screw. Problem solved.

Don't fill in with epoxy or anything of that sort. You need to be able to remove the steel weight from its recess if you ever intend to remove the butt stock. It's attached by a through bolt that is accessed in the hole that houses this weight.

As for your ejector problem, it sounds like your rifle is doubling when fired first with the left barrel. For an experiment put a primed case in the right barrel and fire a full load in the left to see if the right lockwork is falling. That's almost certainly the problem. It should be an easy fix for someone with the skill necessary. Alex Beer certainly can do it.

Good luck.
Curl

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Ben
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: CptCurl]
#209353 - 29/05/12 06:31 AM

Well, there you go. Three with the same problem. I hope Merkel fixes this. I think they're wonderful rifles, at least for my finances, but this was not good. Mine is fixed better than new, now, and is rock-solid.

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500Boswell
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: Ben]
#209371 - 29/05/12 11:32 AM

My 470 did the same thing

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mauserand9mm
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: CptCurl]
#209376 - 29/05/12 12:33 PM

Sounds like we have a common fault here, although likely not serious. I suppose the steel bar though could end up pounding the head of the bolt that holds the buttstock to the action over time if not corrected.

Quote:

As for your ejector problem, it sounds like your rifle is doubling when fired first with the left barrel. For an experiment put a primed case in the right barrel and fire a full load in the left to see if the right lockwork is falling. That's almost certainly the problem. It should be an easy fix for someone with the skill necessary. Alex Beer certainly can do it.

Good luck.
Curl

Actually that's a scary thought - doubling. I always fire the RH barrel first, so you'd never know. I'll check it out like you suggest.

I was sure it was the ejector system since the first time it did it (last year), it failed to eject on the RH barrel. When I pulled it down (to the three basic components - action, barrel and fore stock) the right hand ejector striker was uncocked (which made it hard to put the fore stock back on). Normally the ejector strikers cock whenever the action is closed, which is when the fore stock comes off. Some oil in the mechanism fixed it - something not moving properly against spring tension somewhere in there.

But if that's the problem now, then it would have failed to eject from the RH barrel when I fired the RH barrel, which it didn't.

Mine has cocking indicators so I can try what you suggest without putting any thing in the RH chamber (although it would be good not to dry-fire I suppose). I hope it's not doubling - that would be very dissapointing - the rifle has only fired 190 rnds.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: mauserand9mm]
#209963 - 03/06/12 07:46 PM

CptCurl was right regarding doubling. I was in denial there for some time but made a trip to the range today. My 440gn reloads didn't cause it but my 570gn reloads did.

So I have to repair the buttstock weight and the RH trigger meachanism. Just as well I bought a set of fine bladed hollow ground screwdriver bits. Anyone know where I can find a Merkel dissassembly/parts breakdown manual?

BTW - what would be the likely cause for the RH barrel firing with the left in regards to the trigger system? Sear engagement, spring tension???

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kuduae
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: mauserand9mm]
#209969 - 03/06/12 08:39 PM

German doubles are adjusted by the factory for firing the right/front trigger barrel first. As the front trigger has less leverage than the aft one, it is usually set up with less sear engagement to achieve apparently similar pulls. If you insist on firing the left/wrong barrel first, you will have to change the sear engagement.

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mickey
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: kuduae]
#209988 - 04/06/12 01:26 AM

Quote:

German doubles are adjusted by the factory for firing the right/front trigger barrel first. As the front trigger has less leverage than the aft one, it is usually set up with less sear engagement to achieve apparently similar pulls. If you insist on firing the left/wrong barrel first, you will have to change the sear engagement.

Interesting. Those that advocate left trigger first should read this. I think that it is the wrong way to accomplish the task though. Sometimes you need to fire left first. (as in solid one barrel soft other)

Merkel needs to address this issue or someone may pay a heavy price for a false economy.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: mickey]
#210005 - 04/06/12 03:46 AM

Kuduae, that then is a design error, it should be up to me which trigger I pull first, one doesn´t have this nonsense on a shotgun !! best

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mauserand9mm
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: kuduae]
#210021 - 04/06/12 08:43 AM

Quote:

German doubles are adjusted by the factory for firing the right/front trigger barrel first. As the front trigger has less leverage than the aft one, it is usually set up with less sear engagement to achieve apparently similar pulls. If you insist on firing the left/wrong barrel first, you will have to change the sear engagement.

I didn't know that - kind of makes sense but does present a risk for the user if they are not aware (has anyone had the mis-fortune of going double with live rounds in both barrels?). Is this documented anywhere that you are aware of? (how did you get this info?) I did find a copy of a users manual on the web for the Merkel but it doesn't mention this at all.

Edit: I have requested a parts breakdown/dissassembly manual from Merkel and will also chase this up with them when I make contact.

Edited by mauserand9mm (04/06/12 08:47 AM)

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DUGABOY1
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: mauserand9mm]
#210247 - 06/06/12 02:59 PM

I have a couple of Merkel double rifles and I’ve never doubled the 470NE in slightly over ten years. The 140-2 .470NE extractor rifle, the older one with shoelump barrels instead of the mono-block ejector ones of the newer rifles.

My triggers are set lighter for the right barrel than for the left barrel, on the 470NE and I have had three people double that rifle. All of them firing the back trigger first. I ,on the other hand, routinely fire my 470 using the left barrel first and as I said have never doubled it. The other is a 140E-1, 9.3X74R selective ejector rifle with a set trigger on the right barrel. I also has a lightern trigger pull on the right barrel, plus the set feature makes it into a “HAIR” trigger when it is engaged. I have doubled that rifle one time, on about the first 4 or 5 shots when new, but in that case I felt my finger strum the back trigger under recoil, my fault not the rifle. This rifle is also a shoelump barrel set.

I find that two things make a person double a double rifle! #1 the length of pull is not right for the shooter, and # 2 the hold is not firm. In the case of those three guys who doubled my 470 all were absolutely NEW to double rifles, but all were shooting the back trigger first.

On the recoil reducer in the stock I have no knowledge of this problem because mine do not have them.
...................................................................

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mauserand9mm
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: DUGABOY1]
#210267 - 06/06/12 09:01 PM

Dugaboy1, that's interesting. I'm thinking now that body weight may also play a factor - at least at how much of a jolt and movement occurs. I weigh about 77kg (170lbs?) which is reasonablly light. The recoil movement is more with us lighter guys so maybe this can cause the sear/trigger to jolt and fire on the front trigger system? Of course this assumes that you weigh more than me but I think I'm not too far wrong (am I?).

I went to our BGR Nationals last year and most guy were 200lbs or more, so I reckon most of the big bore shooters are big guys - right/wrong?

I even have to lean into a CZ550 (heavy rifle) 375H&H otherwise I have to take a step back when it fires. While I do hold the 500 firmly (hasn't flown out of my hands and doesn't hurt to fire), I suspect my body mass may be too light to slow the recoil and limit the movement it causes.

Edited by mauserand9mm (06/06/12 09:05 PM)

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NitroX
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: mauserand9mm]
#210283 - 07/06/12 01:30 AM

mauserand9mm,

Check out my action photos of David from SA shooting his .600 NE and he is a slim light guy for how recoil affects guys of lighter stature.

In the BRGC SA forum on NE.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: NitroX]
#210333 - 07/06/12 01:05 PM

Quote:

mauserand9mm,

Check out my action photos of David from SA shooting his .600 NE and he is a slim light guy for how recoil affects guys of lighter stature.

In the BRGC SA forum on NE.

Holy cow! I presume he was leaning forward to start with?

I've fired my friend's 505Gibbs and each time it has the same sensation as getting punched in the face, whereas he doesn't get this, but he is heavier than me. I think my head/body move back that quick that the blood in my face tries to stay where it is and that's what causes that sensation.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: mauserand9mm]
#211390 - 23/06/12 10:33 AM

I spoke with John from Heron Security and Sport (they are now the agents for Merkel here) and he was very helpful and provided lots of information.

I will examine and see if I can fix my problems myself first. I pulled out the weight from the buttstock last night and sure enough on of the mounting screws had broken and the other was badly bent. The screw broke off below the timber - may see if an easy out is available at this small size. The weight is a tight fit and has an o-ring on the end - it was in fact air tight.

There's another weird plug like thing in a hole above the weight - not sure what it is.

Here's some photos:

As far as checking the lock system (John suggested there may be some debris causing the RH sear to not engage fully) I came to another obstacle - there is a third box plate screw (think its a wood screw) underneath the trigger guard and the slot head was already damaged. I'll have to drill the head off, but haven't gotten that far yet.

It had been a while since I pulled the foreend and barrels off and there was some flattened soot(?) on some of the close mating surfaces - needed steel wool to remove it. My RH barrel was causing some action closing issues and this may contributed - under the extractor was otherwise not too crudy.

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Igorrock
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: mauserand9mm]
#211401 - 23/06/12 03:44 PM

Quote:

There's another weird plug like thing in a hole above the weight - not sure what it is.

In my eyes it seems that there is a sled bar for giving more weight and better balance to your rifle. This recoil damper has been added later.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: Igorrock]
#211516 - 25/06/12 08:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

There's another weird plug like thing in a hole above the weight - not sure what it is.

In my eyes it seems that there is a sled bar for giving more weight and better balance to your rifle. This recoil damper has been added later.

You mean "lead bar"? Does look like it could be lead - I'll give it a scratch to check.

The recoil damper is factory standard and is just a steel bar that is meant to be screwed in place at one end. The O ring at the end is to stop that end from rattling. The screw holding the plate to the bar must've come loose first and then with recoil the bar levered the plate against the wood screw head thereby snapping it. I think the wood screw was deliberately made weaker than the bar/plate screw because if this one broke the bar would disappear into the bowels of the stock and would be very hard to recover (it is a very tight fit in there).

I wonder why they have both a lead weight and a metal bar in there - maybe the bar is a fine tune for balance (ie easy to take out and adjust the length accordingly. Maybe they have fixed standard size bars that they can swap around at the factory?)

Edited by mauserand9mm (25/06/12 11:11 AM)

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CptCurl
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: mauserand9mm]
#211635 - 27/06/12 08:32 PM

The lead weight is permanently installed. The steel bar must be removable as it occupies the access hole for the stock attachment thru-bolt.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: 500NE Merkel - rattle in the buttstock [Re: CptCurl]
#214426 - 12/08/12 04:36 PM

Doubling issue:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....SID=#Post214425

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