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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
European Beretta
      #208087 - 06/05/12 11:24 AM

I have recently purchased a Beretta side by side shotgun that is turning out to be quite different than any I have bought or seen before. There are several features that strike me as different right away. It has factory sling swivels for one thing, next it has a short piece of top rib right in front of the breech then it dives down between the barrels as a concave rib. The gun has a hidden third fastener that consists of a round rod that extends out of the breech face after the barrels are closed. Neither the barrels nor the breach are marked in the traditional way with date coded Roman numerals but the water table is stamped 1951. This gun has a frosted looking nickle finish on the action with light border engraving. Last, it has a pistol grip on it and a button release on the bottom of the forend, a nickle plated button surrounded by a thin brass frame around it.
The barrels are proof marked with 1370Kg. I am assuming that this is per square centimeter? It is a 12 gauge and it weighs 6 pounds 8.6 ounces. It either does not reset the safety when opened or someone has removed the linkage to make it do so. The barrels measure 68.5 centimeters or 26 3/4 inches. Choke markings on the barrels are 17.7 and 17.3, I'm guessing around Improved and Modified but that is just a guess. I will take some pictures of it and get them on here later. In the meantime, I would really appreciate hearing any thoughts on the markings, the model of this gun, and what the chokes are. I'm sure it was built for the European trade and it has no importers mark on it. Thanks for your help on figuring this one out. Bob

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1684
Loc: Finland
Re: European Beretta [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #208089 - 06/05/12 02:36 PM

Yours shotgun could be old 409 or 410. Sling swivels are quite common in european shotguns.

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: European Beretta [Re: Igorrock]
      #208099 - 06/05/12 11:47 PM

I have used 409's before and all of them that I used had a crossbolt on them, this one does not. Can you tell me the difference between the 409 and the 410 models? Thanks for your information.
Here are some pictures of the action and forend. Bob















Edited by CptCurl (16/05/12 09:11 PM)

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1806
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: European Beretta [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #208107 - 07/05/12 04:15 AM

BTW, this design may also be called a "Greener top fastener", as William Wellington Greener patented such a round bolt going from the breech face into a hole under the barrel rib in 1863, patent # 2231.

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1684
Loc: Finland
Re: European Beretta [Re: kuduae]
      #208109 - 07/05/12 05:40 AM

I studied more carefully my books and it seems that in 1950 BERETTA offers two side by side models; Model 410, Piccione and Model P 410E with ejectors. Both of them has Purdey -type lock.

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: European Beretta [Re: kuduae]
      #208111 - 07/05/12 08:24 AM

Kuduae,
Thanks for this information, I was not aware that Greener had patented this "bolt in the hole" third bite. I guess I am not too surprised though, he came up with lots of ideas, some his, and I suspect, some that he borrowed from others, just as they all did back then if they could get away with it. Bob

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: European Beretta [Re: Igorrock]
      #208112 - 07/05/12 08:34 AM

Igorrock,
Thanks for that information. This gun has extractors so I guess it would be the model 410 Piccione. I have never even run across that name before, but I'm glad to have this gun. I have always liked lightweight fast moving guns. I grew up instinctively shooting Pheasants and Quail and a light gun seems to work best for me. This is not the lightest 12 gauge gun I have owned, though. I once had a 12 gauge Ithaca Flues in a model 1 1/2 grade with damascus barrels that weighed just over 5 1/2 pounds. I shot it with 2 1/2 inch loads but finally got rid of it because of all the horror stories about damascus barrels blowing up. I wish I had it back! I am including a couple of pictures of the sunken rib on this gun because I thought some members would like to see it. Bob




Edited by CptCurl (16/05/12 09:11 PM)

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: European Beretta [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #208280 - 11/05/12 11:47 PM

For those of you who are interested and have been following this post, I have taken the good advice from Ron Overberg and contacted Marilia Santos at Beretta and asked her about my gun. I also sent her some pictures of it in order to get her opinion on what this gun really is. Below I have reproduced her answer that I found very interesting indeed. As a side note, my gun does not have the articulated front trigger on it. Bob


"The Security Division has informed that the shotgun is a side by side model 409 bis. It has been produced on July 1951 and sold in Italy on August 1951.

This is a shotgun with two barrels hammerless - Monobloc - Beretta special triple locking - trigger Anson Deeley - light elegant engraving - receiver and barrel in Alloy Chromium eletric Steel - Special type Ausonia - rib type St. Etienne - safety on bottom - good class wooden.

Note: the Beretta special triple locking "Patented" is with a longitudinally slide pin controlled by a lever; the system, called "top lever", works at the top of the receiver and it is particularly effective against the solicitations of rotation imparted to the barrel by explosive charge. This locking system allows the application of an extractor of extensive development.

I hope it can help you.

Best regards

MARILIA SANTOS "
Customer Service Firearms & Beretta Sport Division
Fabbrica d'Armi PIETRO BERETTA S.p.A.
Via Artigiani, 1
25063 Gardone Val Trompia, Brescia - ITALY
Tel. +39 030 8341.369 - Fax. +39 030 8341.421

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: European Beretta [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #212142 - 06/07/12 12:56 AM

I have an update for all you guys who helped me figure this out. I have decided that even though Marilia called it a 409 bis, I think maybe this is a 408. Because it is stamped 408 inside the forearm wood with the same stamps as the serial number of the gun found in the same place. She alludes to it being made for and sold in Italy. Since it differs so much from other Beretta 409's, I don't think it is a 409. She was not told about the 408 stamp at the time when I emailed her.
I sucessfully raised the small dent in the barrels and finally got the screws loose to have a look inside the works. Thanks to the makers of Kroil, (soak it and let it have time to work.) It has no safety resetting bar linkage, and never did. The normal way these are put together is to use a pull bolt screwed into a spreader block, for lack of a better word. The block fits into grooves on the inside of the upper and lower tangs, being held in place with two machine screws. This gun does not have a pull bolt, no block, and no safety resetting mechanism. It has upper and lower machine screws that screw into the action. Because of the sling swivels and the light weight, I would say that to call it a light weight Italian game gun would be just right. I have cleaned and fixed it and have put it on Gunbroker.com for sale. The auction number is 294333986 and it is listed as a Rare model 408. As far as I am concerned, that is what it is. I thank you all for your help. I really hated to sell this but I just didn't feel that I could justify keeping it, no more than I would ever use it. I would rather see it go to someone who would use it and appreciate it for what it is, a light weight game gun. Bob

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