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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
What to look for in a Shotgun action?
      #207839 - 29/04/12 11:44 AM

When deciding on a shotgun action for a double rifle build, what do you guys look for? What makes one unsuitable etc?

Ive got this 16 gauge R.Redman with damascus barrels, apart from the stock its in alright condition, actions fairly tight (IMO). One day I wouldnt mind having a .360 2 1/4" made on it if its doable.. (Ive only seen Cartridges of the Worlds listings for its performances, but what were its loads?)

Cheers,
Troy.








Edited by CptCurl (09/05/12 08:23 PM)

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ruffcountry
.300 member


Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 210
Loc: usa
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: Ash]
      #207939 - 02/05/12 09:09 AM

Thats a cool gun but probaly a poor choice for a conversion because of the low strength of damascus .

--------------------
Double Rifle Shooters Society

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DBLGN
.224 member


Reged: 16/10/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: ruffcountry]
      #208118 - 07/05/12 11:29 AM

Quote:

Thats a cool gun but probaly a poor choice for a conversion because of the low strength of damascus .



There are other reasons other than the damascus barrels to not use this gun for a conversion. Recent serious studies have shown that damascus barrels in good shape are generally as strong or stronger than fluid steel barrels. it would be really sad to cut up those beautiful damascus barrels for a conversion. I have seen it done many times though(even by the English). A friend of mine has very nice I. Hollis sidelock 12 bore that we knew had been sleeved (was marked as such, when it was re-proofed), but he had been shooting it for a couple of years, when one day, out in the sun, we noticed that the "monoblock" portion of the gun was damascus. The gun had been blued and unless you held the gun at just the right angle, you could not see the damascus in the monoblock.

I would not use this gun mainly because of the good condition and potential collectability of the gun as it is. That is assuming, of course, that the bores of the shotgun are good. This gun looks to be in reasonably good condition (aside from the "Selous sideplates" ). If you wanted to build an extra set of barrels for it in .360-2 1/4", the Jones underlever (or screw grip as it is sometimes called) is plenty strong enough. In that range of cartridges, I like the .375-2 1/2" - more bullets and personal taste. I have similar Alex Henry action (with no barrels at all!), that I intend to build into a .375-2 1/2, if I ever get the time.

If you decide to look for something else, there is chapter in my book that lists what I look for in an action: double underlugs, strong third fastener (I prefer the Greener crossbolt, but there are other good ones), overall good quality, and traceable proof rules (most European and English guns have this - American guns do not). I use a lot of German guns for conversions. Bear in mind, this is MY criteria, other folks have built rifles on guns that do not have all these things and been quite successful, I just like to error on the side of strength. That said, I recently built a .450-3 1/4" NE on a BRNO 12 bore sidelock. It only had small extension from the barrels as a hidden third fastener, but the gun is very strong and I had zero issues with its strength. At least one other builder on this site has used them as well and really likes them.

--------------------
DBLGN

Edited by DBLGN (07/05/12 11:40 AM)

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ruffcountry
.300 member


Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 210
Loc: usa
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: DBLGN]
      #208122 - 07/05/12 04:06 PM

Quote:

Recent serious studies have shown that damascus barrels in good shape are generally as strong or stronger than fluid steel barrels.



I stand corrected . I didnt know that , I thought it was generally accepted that damascas was weaker . I do agree that I would hate to see that gun cut up and a new set of barrels might give her new life . I think I know where Ash could "commission" said barrels , although I dont know how hard it would be to get them imported .

--------------------
Double Rifle Shooters Society

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: ruffcountry]
      #208131 - 07/05/12 10:37 PM

Many thanks for the comments.
And thanks for the fantastic advice DBLGN.
Was more hoping to keep the 16 gauge barrels and have another set made to fit.
Commission barrels from where, of you don't mind me asking?
This would be years down the track, but I think when the time comes maybe ill look for another gun.
Bores look pretty good, a spot or 2 have a mark though.
On another note, don't spose any of you know from those pics how to take the barrels off??as far as I can tell their isn't anything on the forend and the lever only twists to the one side.

Is there any possibility of a smokeless load in this?

Cheers.

--------------------
.

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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: Ash]
      #208141 - 08/05/12 06:45 AM

Ash we cant see the forend well, but if no lever or wedge, try pulling down hard from the front, like a Savage, could be a clip on, not too hard as to break it, if not a clip on

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: Sarg]
      #208171 - 09/05/12 01:42 AM

Yes - if no visible lever or side to side wedge, I think it probably is a snap-on design with an inside cantilever. Do be careful.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DBLGN
.224 member


Reged: 16/10/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: DarylS]
      #208180 - 09/05/12 11:16 AM

"Is there any possibility of a smokeless load in this?"

Your gun should checked out by a gunsmith that understands older guns, before you shoot it with modern loads. But if it checks out, there is no reason not to shoot it, as long as you take reasonable precautions. Obviously, it should not be shoot with heavy magnum waterfowl loads.

I shoot sporting clays with a group called the "Vintagers" and a lot of us shoot these older damascus guns with modern loads. We try to keep the pressures in the 6K-8K range and use light loads - 7/8oz. usually in the 16's. I have even hunted pheasants with my 16's and the 7/8oz loads, and not felt too handicapped. I have a couple of damascus 12's that I shoot sporting clays with. One of them is an old E.M. Reilly side lever hammer gun, with a beautiful damascus barrels, and 2.5" chambers. I have a good 7/8oz, 2.5" load that I use in this gun. I also shoot a Bonehill boxlock with damascus barrels. I shoot Remington 1oz, 7 1/2's or 8's, light field loads through the Bonehill.

"Commission barrels from where, of you don't mind me asking?": well, that is what I do - build double rifle barrels, however, as Ruffcountry pointed out, there are probably issues with getting them to you in Australia. I have not dealt with exporting to Australia, but I have sent a gun back to Africa. In that case, the US was not a problem, since all I did was "repair" a customer's gun and return it to him. Not sure how Australia would look at it.

--------------------
DBLGN

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DBLGN
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Reged: 16/10/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: DBLGN]
      #208181 - 09/05/12 11:26 AM

"I stand corrected . I didnt know that , I thought it was generally accepted that damascas was weaker . I do agree that I would hate to see that gun cut up and a new set of barrels might give her new life . I think I know where Ash could "commission" said barrels , although I dont know how hard it would be to get them imported ."

Don't feel bad, a lot of us believed until just the last few years. Basically, it turns out to be one the greatest marketing ploys of all time, and people have been believing it for 100 years. It is true that rusted out, deeply pitted, damsacus barrels should not be shot, but that is true of fluid steel barrels as well. The one thing about damascus barrels is that they were shot a lot with black powder loads and, if they were not cleaned properly, they tended to rust and pit the bores more. That is also true of the corrosive priming of the day. There have been several really good articles in Double Gun Journal over the last few years, that record the testing that has been done on damascus barrels.

--------------------
DBLGN

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Crusader68
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 41
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: DBLGN]
      #208262 - 11/05/12 11:40 AM

Don't mean to hijack your thread but this question goes along with the topic. Is there any telltale signs that a possible donor gun is too far gone? On Simpson ltd's site they have a good selection of old shotguns with alot of the features to look for listed in "building double rifle on shotgun actions". For example this particular shotgun meets all those criteria, except maybe that the stock is too far gone, but I can deal with that. So I guess I'm looking for input on wether this is good candidate in general:
http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.p...413346ae08a6bc6

--------------------
Erik S.
"... mais épargnez le visage"

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DBLGN
.224 member


Reged: 16/10/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: Crusader68]
      #208362 - 14/05/12 10:26 AM

We have purchased over 15 guns from Simpsons for various projects, and found their descriptions fair and honest. The limiting factors are how much work you want to put into a gun to make it shootable. The one odd thing about the Simpsons' site is the inconsistency in pricing. We have received $200 guns that were in better shape than $350 guns. You just have to look close and draw your own conclusions about the "value" of a given gun - very few are "overpriced", some a just better than others. A tight action with a bad stock might be a good deal for a guy that wants to restock the gun anyway, but may be more work than someone else wants to go to. It is going to be an individual thing. Almost anything can be "rebuilt" if you want to invest enough time/money. One thing you have to ask yourself, will the value of the finished gun justify the time/money put into it?

Ellis

--------------------
DBLGN

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Crusader68
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 41
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA
Re: What to look for in a Shotgun action? [Re: DBLGN]
      #211277 - 21/06/12 03:01 PM

Yeah the pricing was kind of throwing me off a bit, as they always say if it looks to good to be true it probably is. I see what you mean though about time and effort vs saving a few dollars on the initial, I guess I need to find a median point between cheaper gun with alot of work needed vs more expedite but closer to finished. As someone who has always loved do it yourself project, alot of times the final product may end up costing close to a store bought product, but the journey is more than half the fun most times, plus this route One can add all the little personal preference things, like stock length or shape, that a "mass produced" product doesn't have.

Once again thanks for all the info and advice.

--------------------
Erik S.
"... mais épargnez le visage"

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