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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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Mannlicher1903
.224 member


Reged: 03/01/12
Posts: 2
Loc: Kent, UK
new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions
      #206991 - 13/04/12 09:04 PM

Hi everyone, I don't know if this is the right way to do this, but I have been encouraged by several members to look into making a batch of new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions,

Due to cost of set up we need to have a batch of 10 or more actions to make the production cost effective,

After much arm twisting we have been talked in to make the first actions suitable for 45/70 as this is the most popular and most available brass, other calibres will be catered for later, all actions will be supplied in the white, and will require a small amount of hand finishing, bluing, barrelling and proofing.

Later we will be able to supply finished actions and finished rifles,

What we need is 10 firm orders and we will start to make these actions,

We require a deposit and a signed agreement with full payment on completion,

I will post prices shortly when I have worked them out,

Anyone interested please email, info@abtrifles.com and I will get back to you.



Al











Edited by CptCurl (14/05/12 08:27 PM)

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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: Mannlicher1903]
      #207475 - 22/04/12 01:33 AM

"actions suitable for 45/70" - Will they only be suitable for cartridges built on that case?

--------------------
~

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27000
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: Grenadier]
      #207481 - 22/04/12 02:11 AM

1st of all, I very much like the idea of a Modern Made Martini Action/rifle.

Very important to this venture, is what pressure level on the .45/70 case are these actions expected to 'work with' as average maximums? Typically, 45/70 loads are grouped into 3 categories - strong Modern Actions, then the weaker Lever Actions, then the weakest, Replica Sharps, Springfield Trapdoor, Original Springfield Trapdoors, Original Sharps and Original early Lever Guns like the Marlin '81 etc.

Are these actions expected to be bunched with the 'modern action groups' in .45/70 loading, 55,000psi, or 43,000psi, or the low presssure group at 28,000psi? Factory american loads are typically only loaded to 22,000psi - even lower yet, which duplicates the velocities of the 1800's BP loads, but cuts the BP pressure by 6,000psi, according to Accurate Arm's pressure testing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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FrankS
.300 member


Reged: 06/10/08
Posts: 114
Loc: New Iberia Louisiana
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: DarylS]
      #207575 - 23/04/12 01:40 PM

Al, I've seen a few martini rifles converted to 45/70 and if your project gets off the ground you ten actions for your first run may prove to be very popular. Unfortunately some of the octagon barrels I have seen installed look like truck axels and much is lost for the feel of a sportered martini. Many years I had a chance to buy a set of martini sporting rifles in the fitted wooded case with a few goodies such as screwdrivers, oil bottles and such. The dealer wanted $1000 for the whole set, but was willing to break up the set. Calibers were 303 British and old faithful 577/450 and a box of kynoch ammo came with each rifle. I had just gotten out of the navy and started a new job. That job paid all of $2.00 an hour. Guess I set my sights way to high as everytime I went to that shop they were still there. Beautiful wood, ribs on top of each barrel, barrel mounted sights.And the deepest darkest black/bluing I had ever seen. Darn tore my heart out as there was no way making what I was that I could never afford those two rifles. This was I believe in 1967. Wonder who finally ponyied up and got that beautiful set?. As a suggestion when your run starts offer up extra extractors in different rimmed cartridges 30-30,405 winchester, 38-55, 375 2 1/2 flanged express and possibly a few others. Would save cutting and welding the extractors and might just make your actions more saleable. Good luck with your endeavor. Frank

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Stuart
.275 member


Reged: 24/05/07
Posts: 58
Loc: Mission, B.C., Canada
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: FrankS]
      #207578 - 23/04/12 01:50 PM

An excellent project. I've oftem wondered why none of the Italian reproduction companies has done a Martini.

I suggested he also post this on the Martini-Henry Forum but it seems he hasn't done so yet.

Stuart

--------------------
Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by
smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles
who really mean it. (Mark Twain)

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: FrankS]
      #207579 - 23/04/12 01:53 PM

Frank, I've used a Francotte Martini Brit style sporting rifle just as you describe in .303

It was the first martini that actually got my attention.
Very sleek with Brit style open pistol grip and just enough forend, full rib and proper sights, spooky charcoal blacking, and handled and shot so well.


What a honey.






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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kamilaroi
.400 member


Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: tinker]
      #207584 - 23/04/12 04:13 PM

If higher pressure loads are contemplated I'd consider the weak extraction issue.

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: kamilaroi]
      #207599 - 24/04/12 02:01 AM

Unless you can make these for less than $425 out the door you are wasting your time. That is the price for an uncleaned MH MK II rifle from the Nepalese cache here in the U.S. That price is good enough that the two companies selling these rifles are filling orders for UK, Canada and Australia.

Do this rifle in the Francotte detachable lock Martini and you will have a much better project.



You may be familiar with this action in the little BSA .22 Francotte Martini and .310 Cadet.

There was a lesser known large action made. Westley Richards supplied the Boer Republic with a large number of these in 577/450 Martini.

There is a side safety version, Here is one done up by Jeffery's in 577 Snider.




If you do the Martini Henry. Look to doing the MK I type trigger with sliding safety. That trigger was in the Martini Peabody target rifles.

There are Martini Henry pattern sporters that would be appealing also. But the side safety is a must for a hunting rifle.

Here are a few.









I think you will find a better market for these if you target the sporter market.

Calibers. I am not a big fan of the 45/70 in this gun. The reality is that you will sell more guns in 45/70. Other Calibers to consider are Westley Richard Musket No.2 (Gibbs 500/450 No. 2)(500/450 Musket No 2), .375 2 1/2 Flanged NE, .303 Brit., 30-30 Winchester, 405 Winchester and 577 2 3/4 NE.

Edited by CptCurl (14/05/12 08:30 PM)

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27000
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: DoubleD]
      #207613 - 24/04/12 09:50 AM

I could personally see a .405 Winchester and perhaps a .303.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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PerEH
.224 member


Reged: 11/01/12
Posts: 6
Loc: Kristiansand, Norway
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: DarylS]
      #207624 - 24/04/12 11:11 PM

Al recently ahad eye surgery and he will post more when he is better.

The .45-70 was a request from a soursce, other calibers is possible. The .45-70 is the first batch to gain finacial backing for the future models and variations on them . So its others on the way, but 577-450 , 303 and others is on that list . They will be made using cnc machines, not cast , so they will handle a good pressure level in them.

He will add more when he is better, but go ahead and ask more questions and i will try to respond on his behalf so good as i can .

I think for my use a 7x57R would good since its one of the easiest to get cartridges over here.

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Mannlicher1903
.224 member


Reged: 03/01/12
Posts: 2
Loc: Kent, UK
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: FrankS]
      #207626 - 24/04/12 11:25 PM

Sorry I haven't been following this, had one of cataracts done last week and I am having problems seeing what's written on screens,

Anyway I asked the London proof house what they would proof the Martini in 45-70 at, the reply was, 2200 Bar/normal, 2530 bar/ 10 shots, and 2750 Bar for a single shot, I think that works out to 31900 PSI, 36690 Psi and 39885 Psi,

to answer a few more yes we can do all sorts of Martini actions, I just need drawings or an example to work from, yes other calibres will be available, i just need enough orders to make the feed ramps correct for that calibre,

And finally, there has been a number of cases where the Nepalese martini's have been banned from the ranges here, or refused to be proofed, with the age of the steel I don't blame them either, I have one order from the Uk already for the Mk2 in 45-70 as the guy dropped the block from his old favourite, and it shattered, need we say any more,

So you tell me what you want and I can make it, it wont be $430, that I can promise, but you will be able to shoot the rifle for another 100 plus years,

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belgmart
.275 member


Reged: 29/02/04
Posts: 78
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: Mannlicher1903]
      #207970 - 03/05/12 05:11 AM

Another vote for the large action (Westley-Richards)Francotte-Martini - much rarer, and classier than the ubiquitous Mk II. And with that takedown mechanism, much easier to clean, repair and maintain. Example? I'll probably have one along at the IHAM this year in Bisley, maybe more than one... Hmmm - and there is 1 person I know of having solidworks drawings.

--------------------
Martini's Rule!

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Bindi2
.275 member


Reged: 03/03/11
Posts: 80
Loc: WA, Aust
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: belgmart]
      #208096 - 06/05/12 08:46 PM

What about the 12g/12bore size

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Brithunter
.300 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Lincolnshire, England
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: Bindi2]
      #209230 - 28/05/12 12:44 AM

Have you considered the Swinburns patent version?

It has a internal hammer and a side lever cocking with half cock.







Sadly I no longer own this re-finshed example.

--------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down!

Edited by CptCurl (09/06/12 09:11 PM)

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: Mannlicher1903]
      #209290 - 28/05/12 12:21 PM

Quote:




And finally, there has been a number of cases where the Nepalese martini's have been banned from the ranges here, or refused to be proofed, with the age of the steel I don't blame them either, I have one order from the Uk already for the Mk2 in 45-70 as the guy dropped the block from his old favourite, and it shattered, need we say any more,



I must say I am bit skeptical about this statement. Not that I don't thinks it's true, I do. It's just that the statement shows a clear lack of knowledge of the guns in the Nepalese Cache and which of the guns are bad and which are not.

There are three types of rear hinge block rifle in the Nepalese cache.

Two are Martini patterns and the third is a variant of the Westley Richards 1872 patent single shot.

One of the Martini pattern rifle is a complete Nepalese made Martini using a Francotte pattern detachable action. If a block from a Nepalese cache Martini shattered it would be this one. I have my serious doubts this rifle would pass proof. They have some serious defects, including the glass hard parts.

The other Martini is the British Military Martini Henry. The cache has two versions, the MK II and the MK IV. They are original British made rifles. I seriously doubt they would fail proof and especially not in a 45/70. I don't know what the proof process was when these rifles were made, but they are probably still under proof. These are the rifles I was referring to for $425.

I would not hesitate to build on one of these British made actions. If you build the MK II action you will have to compete against these rifles.

Sorry, if you say some one dropped their block from a MK II Martini and it shattered you are going to have to show me the rifle and the block to convince me.

The third rear hinge block rifle from cache are the Gahendra. They are an internal hammer hinge block action that bases its design on the Westley Richards 1872 so called improved Martini.

I suspect individuals rifles from the Gahendra group might fail proof. And, the failure rate would be higher than norm. I think it is more likely the barrels would fail before the action.

None of these rifles should be confused with so called Khyber Pass rifles out Afghanistan. Those are some very questionable guns for sure.

Before you get two wrapped up in this project I suggest you do your homework. Look at the Peabody Martini. It is like the first MkI Martini with sliding trigger and finer trigger like found on the What Cheer. You will find a good market for that model.


The other gun to look at is the Francotte pattern as used by Westley Richards.

If you are really interested in doing this right let me know, I can probably help or find you help.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (28/05/12 11:22 PM)

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birdwatcher
.224 member


Reged: 25/12/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Canada
Re: new Martini-Henry Mark II Actions [Re: DoubleD]
      #222491 - 29/12/12 11:15 AM

I would really love to see a UK or other Commonwealth made martini henry action rimfire rifle, as sadly Sportco and BSA are no longer with us.

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