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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 3006 or 45/70 [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #210047 - 04/06/12 01:23 PM

Thanks all now the fun starts! I will have to see what other loads that will shoot well and that I can get to regulate in the rifle. and at what level that it gets to uncomfortable to shoot.
Tom N

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TomN
.300 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 3006 or 45/70 [Re: TomN]
      #211813 - 01/07/12 10:39 AM

I have posted this on the reloading form but haven't gotten a replay as yet. I have gotten all the things I need to reloade for the 45/70 I have hornady 350gr. interlocks and some Speer 400 gr. flat points. The Hodgdon manual lists the 350's at 1786 FPS at 21800 CUP and 2013 at 29500. The speers are listed at 1845 at 25000 CUP. The rifle barrel is marked max pressure 2200 bar whith I think is 31900 psi (14.5 per 1 bar x 2200) would that be right? If it is I would have a hard time deciding whith one to use. the RP 405's shoot very well but are a little on the slow side for what I want I doin't know if the others are to hot but the manual lists 385 cast at 1805 for 21800 in the trapdoor so the 21800 in the 350 should be ok I just doint know abut the 2013 load. I have herd that in the 45/70 and some others cup and psi are the same is that right? thanks
Tom N

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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(was 3006 or 45/70 remSxS) ->-> C.U.P. VS P.S.I. Handloads [Re: TomN]
      #211815 - 01/07/12 01:43 PM

Tread carefully.
C.U.P. does not exactly equal P.S.I.

I don't have good examples handy for comparison on your specific scenario here, but I believe we have someone here who does.

Hang tight.






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: (was 3006 or 45/70 remSxS) ->-> C.U.P. VS P.S.I. Handloads [Re: tinker]
      #211869 - 02/07/12 06:43 AM

The .30/06 has a ceiling of about 50,000CUP SAAMI and 51,000 CIP (both copper crusher method), which is listed also, as 60,000PSI SAAMI and 59,000PSI CIP.

The .45/70 is listed in the same chart as 28,000 PSI SAAMI and 32,000CUP CIP(Euro). Their copper crusher listings are 28,000 CUP SAAMI and 29,000CUP CIP. Go to http://kwk.us/pressures.html and see for yourself. Bookmarking this site will come in handy. Also - read the text as it explains points of measurement by either system and why the numbers don't always 'Jive'.

The .45/70's ceiling is what the rifle mfg'r says it is, in this case 31,990 or whatever PSI - note, that with the .45/70, and many other straight sided cases, PSI and CUP are indentical or exceptionally close numbers, ie: equal - 30,000CUP is 30,000PSI. It is with the bottle necked rounds where they become quite different.

Also note that Speer's manual lists loads for the Lever guns which Hodgdon then states are OK for Trapdoor Springfields because Speer limits the lever gun pressures to 28,000CUP(ie: 28,000PSI) or less. It is interesting they don't agree, but then, what would be the fun of that?

Hornady lists lever gun pressures to over 40,000PSI/CUP, as-does Hodgdon, while they maintain 'WEAK' actioned .45/70s at 28,000CUP/PSI.
Even at low pressures of 28,000PSI- almost 2,000fps can be obtained with 350gr. bullets - no flies on those ballistics. Try a 405gr. RP at 1,800fps and see it stagger a moose or elk.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ruffcountry
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Re: (was 3006 or 45/70 remSxS) ->-> C.U.P. VS P.S.I. Handloads [Re: DarylS]
      #211887 - 02/07/12 02:01 PM

Here is an interesting chart and explanation of cup and psi ,I think this is the article by bramwell mentioned in the link daryl gave above . also keep in mind that even if you had a rifle with a strong action some of the 45-70 cases might not hold up to higher pressures being as they were originaly designed for low pressure .I've heard some of the newer 45-70 cases might be a little thicker.
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

--------------------
Double Rifle Shooters Society

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: (was 3006 or 45/70 remSxS) ->-> C.U.P. VS P.S.I. Handloads [Re: ruffcountry]
      #211942 - 03/07/12 02:47 AM

Ruffcountry, the new .45/70 brass, ie; RP, FED, WW, Starline, etc, is as strong, actually stronger in primer pocket strength than belted mag. brass - This is due to it's rim diameter. The head area has similar strenght in modern actions. Marlin tested a lever gun to 70,000psi (their test) without any problems and absolutely no stickiness of the bold upon extraction- form the M95. This is not to suggest 70,000psi loads are OK in that rifle - It's max allowable re-loading pressure, according to Marlin, is 43,000psi/cup.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: (was 3006 or 45/70 remSxS) ->-> C.U.P. VS P.S.I. Handloads [Re: DarylS]
      #211973 - 03/07/12 12:43 PM

I think that I may just be over thinking this it makes cents that 21000 is 21000 weather I use a 350gr or 400 gr. I will just get more fps with 350 gr. and use less powder with 400 gr to get 21000 cup it should not matter at all as long as I stay under 28000 cup that is listed for the trapdoor.

Tom N

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pricedo
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Reged: 25/08/12
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Re: 3006 or 45/70 [Re: AkMike]
      #216804 - 16/09/12 01:49 PM

Quote:

Tom,
Just use use it as is with decent loads. If you want more power get a bigger rifle. Hot-rodding isn't what you want with a DR. That's like buying VW bug and wanting to race Grand Prix' Enjoy it!
That 45-70 will do everything you need until you wander up her or further points of the globe.



Time to wake up & smell the coffee. The Baikal MP221 45-70 is nothing but a noise making toy; a living room conversation piece that looks a bit like a real double but ain't. Take a close look at the paper thin metal in the barrel walls near the muzzle . If you push that gun with suped-up factory ammo like Buffalo Bore or Garrett or with heavy hand loads you're likely to wind up wearing it. What do you expect for less than $1000?

--------------------
Life memberships in GOA & NRA

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 3006 or 45/70 [Re: pricedo]
      #216839 - 17/09/12 01:53 AM

pricedu - Tom's not talking about nor wanting to be using 35,000 to 40,000psi loads (the lever actioned factory stuff you mentioned) in his rifle - just 1873-era safe rifle pressure loads, ie: up to 28,000psi. That level of pressure which is safe even in an 1873 Springfield trapdoor of decent condition, will be just fine in his Baikal.

Even at 28,000psi, he will be able to run to 2,000fps with 350's if using the correct powders, if he wants to. This isn't rocket science or questionable loading practises as there is a ton of good data available.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Michael
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Reged: 28/07/05
Posts: 69
Loc: Darwin, Northern Territory
Re: 3006 or 45/70 [Re: pricedo]
      #216882 - 18/09/12 12:16 AM

Quote:

Time to wake up & smell the coffee. The Baikal MP221 45-70 is nothing but a noise making toy; a living room conversation piece that looks a bit like a real double but ain't. Take a close look at the paper thin metal in the barrel walls near the muzzle . If you push that gun with suped-up factory ammo like Buffalo Bore or Garrett or with heavy hand loads you're likely to wind up wearing it. What do you expect for less than $1000?



Interesting first post??

Now for all the doomsayers that predicted the explosion of a thousand Baikals when used with modern 45/70 loads.......has anyone actually SEEN one of these destroyed firearms?

Has anyone SEEN any major issue with any of these doubles that have now been on the market for a suitable time to have encountered a keen reloader or even a Garrett load??

Anyone..........

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pricedo
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Reged: 25/08/12
Posts: 2
Loc: Area 51, USA
Re: 3006 or 45/70 [Re: Michael]
      #216885 - 18/09/12 02:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Time to wake up & smell the coffee. The Baikal MP221 45-70 is nothing but a noise making toy; a living room conversation piece that looks a bit like a real double but ain't. Take a close look at the paper thin metal in the barrel walls near the muzzle . If you push that gun with suped-up factory ammo like Buffalo Bore or Garrett or with heavy hand loads you're likely to wind up wearing it. What do you expect for less than $1000?



Interesting first post??

Now for all the doomsayers that predicted the explosion of a thousand Baikals when used with modern 45/70 loads.......has anyone actually SEEN one of these destroyed firearms?

Has anyone SEEN any major issue with any of these doubles that have now been on the market for a suitable time to have encountered a keen reloader or even a Garrett load??

Anyone..........



The quote begs the obvious question.
There never seems to be a shortage of information from posters regarding favorite loads for any particular firearm.
I expect the same is true for the Baikal MP221 double rifle in 45-70.
Is there any data regarding loads that have been tested with the Baikal double?
The 45-70 has SAAMI specs that reflect the fact that there still many legacy firearms chambered in this caliber that generic factory ammo (not the suped-up specialty stuff like Buffalo Bore & Garrett) needs to work safely in.
We have all been hot rodding our Marlin 1895s for years but if you call the manufacturer & ask what ammo is safe to use in the 1895s they'll invariably say factory ammo loaded to SAAMI specs. It's a lawyer/civil liability thing & has nothing to do with the ability of the gun to handle above SAAMI loads.
The OFFICIAL manufacturer ammo recommendations for any given firearm will rarely exceed the SAAMI maximum working pressure specs.
That being said, has anybody mapped out the real limitations of this gun?
I've done a bid of internet "Googling" and some sources say the Baikal double is quite strong.
Does anybody have any empirical loading data for the Baikal MP221 in 45-70 that has worked safely in THEIR guns?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 3006 or 45/70 [Re: pricedo]
      #216887 - 18/09/12 03:19 AM

Earlier in this thread, we discussed all of this.

Since none of us has as you ask, "mapped out the real limitations of this gun", most shooters will adhere to the maker's maximum notes, ie: 32,000psi (pezio) CIP, which is 4,000PSI higher than SAAMI recommendations which are suggestions, not law. In Europe, CIP listings are law as I understand the situation.

The current standards are CIP 32,000PSI and SAAMI 28,000PSI.
In CUP - ie; copper crusher units of pressure, the CIP is listed as 29,000 CIP and SAAMI as 28,000 CUP, which is identical to SAAMI's PSI numbers.

Marlin says their guns are OK to 43,000. Hornady loads them thusly for the Marlins - Marlins have been tested by them, to 70,000psi with extraction normal, no adverse pressure signs. THAT is NOT suggested loading data. Never exceed a manual's load for any given rifle. I though it interesting they found it necessary or even a good idea to mention this 'test'. Their premise was that current brass is as strong as any other modern brass, that is all, I'm sure, and that their rifles possess a degree of safety.

As far as over-reacting to someone's loads for the Baikals, lets not be too hasty unless we know what they are doing. Tom, as he stated, plans to keep his loads at or below 28,000psi, even though Baikals are listed to 32,000psi. If he went to that level, he'd easily beat 2,000fps with 400's, but that will not be much fun for him in this relatively light rifle. A Hornady RN at 350gr. at 1,600fps to 1,800fps will be more than enough for his 'game'.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 3006 or 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
      #216892 - 18/09/12 03:35 AM

pricedo-


Members of this site have in the past done extensive testing and development of loads and equipment.
Given your keen interest and the relatively low cost of this rifle, I invite you to spearhead the project.
Share your testing data and include photos.
I look forward to seeing your results.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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