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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Nyati50
.224 member


Reged: 15/03/12
Posts: 11
Loc: PA, USA
double rifle
      #205565 - 20/03/12 05:10 AM

I would like to hunt Africa within the next two years. I want to do it with a double rifle. I have multiple bolt guns that include a 9.3x62mm, several .375 H&H's, a Ruger Magnum .416 Rigby, and a custom .458 Lott that is built on a Remington P-17 Enfield action with a Douglas barrel and a handy Ruger Number 1 in .450/400 3" Nitro Express. I just plain want a double and I have honestly never hunted with one. My question concerns caliber. I have my heart set on a .500 Nitro, but am having second thoughts due to that caliber not at all being versatile. I don't want a .450 Nitro as that would be redundant with the Lott, as would the .470 Nitro Express. I am asking for input concerning a .450/400 3" double or a .500 Nitro double. A .450/400 3" might be very light and handy and certainly more versatile. I only want to shoot a cape buffalo and maybe a hippo and I know that Taylor loved the .450/400 Nitro as did Karamojo Bell and many others. After all the .404 Jeff was about right for elephant cropping. With the cost of the hunt being so expensive for me, I want to only buy one double rifle and I want to make sure I am buying the rifle that best suits the mission. I understand that I do not need it as I have many rifles that can do the job with certainty, but my dream has always included using a double and I want to fulfill my dream. I appealing to any of you that have experience in Africa with doubles. I want to make an informed purchase. Again, I will only be hunting cape buffalo and maybe a hippo. I don't want to hunt plains game, cats, or anything like that. Any and all input from experienced double users would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

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Ben
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia
Re: double rifle [Re: Nyati50]
      #205577 - 20/03/12 08:19 AM

.500NE seems to be versatile to me: wild dogs, pigs great and small, buffalo... so far...

Follow your heart! Both are great calibres. I have a Merky double in the greater, and a Ruger single in the lesser.

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: double rifle [Re: Ben]
      #205580 - 20/03/12 08:45 AM

Nyati50, I love doubles but there is a good bit in a Boddington book where he is chatting with a famous PH who reckons you will have to give up 60% of your shots on Buff if you haven´t a scope. I believe this is an under estimate. I have nothing like the experience of most of the chaps here and I don´t know how old you are or the state of your eyesight or your budget but IMO a double with a QD scope is important, (I know the purists will cry no). Also I have been trying to get a Hippo on land for 3 years and have failed but if you want to whack one in the water, accuracy is everything, on land a .500 is perfect. By the sound of your battery you have all that is needed but you want a big bore double so get a .500 but KNOW you will have to give up some shots, just MHO, best, Mike

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: double rifle [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #205585 - 20/03/12 09:24 AM

I've handled .500ne rifles which were equipped with QD scope mounts.
No good reason to *not* have a scope on your 500 double rifle.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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ruffcountry
.300 member


Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 210
Loc: usa
Re: double rifle [Re: tinker]
      #205591 - 20/03/12 02:38 PM

I am very far from double rifle expert but my two cents worth is that .450-400 and .500 are more or less on opposite ends of the big gun spectrum . I wouldnt be so fast to rule out all the calibers in between . A double rifle is a special creation different enough by design to hold its place in the gun cabinet no matter how many similary chambered rifles surround it there .

--------------------
Double Rifle Shooters Society

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Charls
.275 member


Reged: 05/05/05
Posts: 75
Loc: South Africa
Re: double rifle [Re: Nyati50]
      #205616 - 21/03/12 01:39 AM

I am from South Africa and hunt the 'big five' regularly- only with doubles. I have owned various rifles throught the years and the one that I always return to is a Westley Richards 450/400 3". The only compromise I have done is to install a red dot sight. Whilst I have not owned a 500, I have owned various 470's and, to me, these almost feel like a 'backup rifle' rather than a 'hunting' rifle- and I am not particularly recoil shy. Currently my regular battery that can be used succesfully in the bush is the Westley and a Rigby 303 double. Plains game is a little more complicated.
Hope this helps,
Charls

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Nyati50
.224 member


Reged: 15/03/12
Posts: 11
Loc: PA, USA
Re: double rifle [Re: ruffcountry]
      #205617 - 21/03/12 01:49 AM

Thanks for your input. I know that the .450/400 and the .500 are at different ends of the spectrum and I have always wanted a .50 caliber. I was always intrigued by the .505 Gibbs and had a .500 Jeffrey bolt gun being built for me, but just couldn't get past the rebated rim (had some issues with reliability of feed in a .284 Winchester and .425 Westley Richards). Stopped the .500 Jeff project and decided on a .500 Nitro double. Guess I will go with the .500 Nitro. Didn't need too much of a nudge. I looked at one the other day. Yes it was a Sabatti with extractors. Probably will get Butch Searcy to build me one. The Sabatti was nice and balanced relatively well, but I heard there were some issues with improper regulating practices (grinding off some of the rifling in the offending barrel). I saw no telltale signs of that as both barrels seemed properly crowned and all of the rifling was sharply cut. The wood to metal fit was as good as most Merkels and Krieghofs I have encountered. I have no idea about their lock system, but I understand that they do not use coil springs so I would appreciate that. I am not convinced that ejectors make that much noise, but they most definitely create that metallic ping that may give your position away in the thick jess, but I don't know if I could be fast enough with just extractors. These are the goofy things that go through my mind. You can see that I am a mere rookie with double guns, but I have made the commitment and I will live or die with the commitment. I am going to Africa with a double and from the input here, it sounds like it should be a .500. I am pleased with that. Thanks again for your input. I would probably take the .450/400 Nitro Ruger Number 1 as my second rifle. I love my Rigby, but the Number One is so sleek and with modern powder, I am pushing that rifle to factory Rigby levels anyway. With a single loader I don't have to worry about factory regulated barrels. I think I am driving the 400 grain at about 2300+ fps.

Nyati50 (Michael)

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: double rifle [Re: Nyati50]
      #205661 - 21/03/12 12:22 PM

Quote:

Thanks for your input. I know that the .450/400 and the .500 are at different ends of the spectrum and I have always wanted a .50 caliber. I was always intrigued by the .505 Gibbs and had a .500 Jeffrey bolt gun being built for me, but just couldn't get past the rebated rim (had some issues with reliability of feed in a .284 Winchester and .425 Westley Richards). Stopped the .500 Jeff project and decided on a .500 Nitro double. Guess I will go with the .500 Nitro. Didn't need too much of a nudge.



Nyati50 first let me say the word “NEED” has nothing to do with the acquisition of a double rifle! The fact that you want one is all the “NEED” that counts!

Having said that IMO the fact that one has bolt rifles or single shots in the same or similar chamberings is not a draw-back to having a double rifle in those same chamberings or ballistic class. Bolt action, single-shot and double rifles all have pluses and minuses that each do things the others can’t do as well. SO! That is no draw-back to having a double rifle either. As you may have already known there are things double rifles do far better than any other type of hunting firearm.

Quote:

I looked at one the other day. Yes it was a Sabatti with extractors. Probably will get Butch Searcy to build me one. The Sabatti was nice and balanced relatively well, but I heard there were some issues with improper regulating practices (grinding off some of the rifling in the offending barrel). I saw no telltale signs of that as both barrels seemed properly crowned and all of the rifling was sharply cut. The wood to metal fit was as good as most Merkels and Krieghofs I have encountered. I have no idea about their lock system, but I understand that they do not use coil springs so I would appreciate that.



It has always been my opinion that anyone new to double rifles should buy “NEW” or newly made double. My reason for that opinion is unless you are well schooled on double rifles, the buying of a vintage double is not only very expensive, but can be a real money pit of loss with some of the dolled up junk on the market today. Most of the newly made doubles are good buys, and are most times far cheaper to buy in the long run. The are made from modern steel, and have not been abused by some cretin with a pile of sandpaper, steal wool, blueing salts and a plumber’s license.

I would stick to the mainstream new doubles however like Chapuis, Krieghoff, Merkel and Varney Carron for off the shelf buying. Or most of those same names and some others like B. Searcy or Heym made to fit you for a little more money, and time for delivery. Right now I would shy away from the Sabatti product till they bring up the quality of their manufacturing practices. One other I would not recommend in a dangerous chambering is the Blaser S-2 because of it’s automatic de-cocking if opened for any reason, and must be re-cocked before it can be fired after a reload. The Krieghoff has a similar system but one cocked and fired or opened for any reason either re-cocks itself and is ready to fire as soon as it is closed.

Your comment on coil springs is without merit IMO. Unless absolute top quality leaf springs are far more prone to work hardening and breakage than just GOOD coil springs. Coils are far easier to carry a spare set for repair in the field if the need arises’



Quote:

I am not convinced that ejectors make that much noise, but they most definitely create that metallic ping that may give your position away in the thick jess, but I don't know if I could be fast enough with just extractors. These are the goofy things that go through my mind.



I wouldn’t worry about the noise made by the ejectors unless you plan on hunting a lot of tuskless cow elephant in tight bush. It matters little to cape buffalo, and a wounded lion or leopard once he realizes you are near sound doesn’t play a big part in his desire to rip you to shreds. A quality set of ejectors is a life saver sometimes with buffalo, and almost always with the cats.

Quote:

You can see that I am a mere rookie with double guns, but I have made the commitment and I will live or die with the commitment. I am going to Africa with a double and from the input here, it sounds like it should be a .500. I am pleased with that. Thanks again for your input. I would probably take the .450/400 Nitro Ruger Number 1 as my second rifle. I love my Rigby, but the Number One is so sleek and with modern powder, I am pushing that rifle to factory Rigby levels anyway. With a single loader I don't have to worry about factory regulated barrels. I think I am driving the 400 grain at about 2300+ fps.

Nyati50 (Michael)



Michael I believe in your case the 500NE makes sense. No1 you are used to large bore rifles, so the 500NE will be no unpleasant surprise to you. With the 450/400NE Ruger No1 as a back-up rifle you will be well fixed for weapons. One word of caution here, with the 450/400NE ammo being loaded too hot for double rifles, you need to label all your ammo for the Ruger as “HOT: not for use in double rifles” in case someone tries to use it in an older double rifle. If you don’t have a scope on the Ruger I would install one preferably with a 2-7X40mm or 3-9X40MM illuminated reticle like the Trijicon.

What ever you decide have fun and enjoy your double rifle but be guided by the knowledge that double rifles are addictive, and what ever you buy, it wont be the last one you buy! Don’t forget to put the DRSS (Double Rifle Shooters Society) in your sig line and welcome!
....................................................................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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ozhunter
.400 member


Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: double rifle [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #205673 - 21/03/12 04:02 PM

The 450/400 would be ideal. Particularly due to the fact that you can easily add a detachable scope for twilight or difficult shots.
However, If you have no desire to fix a scope or have no issue with recoil then go with what your heart desires as after all that's why you decided on a double.

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Nyati50
.224 member


Reged: 15/03/12
Posts: 11
Loc: PA, USA
Re: double rifle [Re: ozhunter]
      #205695 - 22/03/12 12:51 AM

All of you are very kind to welcome me. I have read this forum for quite some time and have found the people posting to be stand-up, experienced huntsmen. I am truly a rookie to double rifles, but really, really want one badly. I take every comment seriously and I am sure there are many things I need to know, but don't. I was offered a really nice .577 Nitro Double (think it was a Wesley Richards as its been a while ago) for $75,000. The gun was absolutely drop dead gorgeous and the case was nicer than any furniture I own. The guy wanted to trade me for a Chris Craft lake boat or a locomotive. I had no locomotive and no longer had access to a Chris Craft lake boat that was once owned by my wife's grandfather. The rifle sure was nice and I am learning quality. I looked at the Sabatti because it was available relatively locally to peruse. The workmanship was decent and not crude as I was expecting. My local dealer can get me Merkel, Krieghof, and perhaps Heym. I may just go with Butch Searcy. I just don't know at this minute. I want to be careful with my money as I am certainly not wealthy, but I need to do this. The "want" is for the double, but the "need" is to do Africa the correct way I have dreamed about the hunt and in that "dream", I have the double. I am well accomplished with heavy recoiling rifles and have shot them frequently for 40 years. I don't believe I have developed bad habits. I don't flinch and exercise great concentration and trigger control, but I have absolutely no experience with doubles. I have always wanted a .500 Nitro or .50 caliber bolt gun. I had begun a project building a .500 Jeff., but decided to scuttle the project after purchasing a barrel and having it reamed and chambered. Just don't really like rebated rimmed cartridges (had some issues with a .284 Win. and .425 WR ) reliably feeding consistently. I am sure my gunsmith could have sorted them out, but I lost interest. I still have the barrel. Actually gave the Griffin and Howe stock to Barry Taylor (arctic caribou guide). I have been toying with the idea of a CZ in .505 Gibbs, but it just isn't the double I want.

I will continue to solicit input from the fine gentlemen on this forum and "take the plunge". I love my .450/400 Nitro and must admit that I am very impressed with .40 caliber guns. I love my Rigby and keep it at about factory specs. The .450/400 Nitro has been loaded-up a bit, but is really not necessary as the .410 diameter 400 grain projectile at roughly 2150 fps. is fine. I don't push my .458 Win. Mag. hard and I don't push the .458 Lott much over 2250 fps. I just don't think it is needed. Should I buy the .500 Nitro double (components readily available for "rolling your own"), I think I will be complete, but could most assuredly see a .450/400 Nitro 3" double on the horizon.

Nyati50 (Michael)

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