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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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AkMike
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: ruffcountry]
      #202483 - 14/02/12 03:50 PM

It's not caused by the rifle or caliber. It's the shooter barely touching the front trigger, like on a bolt gun. We just need to adapt and remember to do it right. (or left as the case may be! )

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Buchsemann
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: ruffcountry]
      #202526 - 15/02/12 08:03 AM

Unless I am misinterpreting the comments from others in this thread and others prior, the "strumming" of the rear trigger seems to come down to a conflict of habit versus proper technique. One would think if the shooter had good purchase of the front trigger by having his first digit past the trigger and engaging the trigger at the joint of the first and second digit or on the second digit, and with a firm grip on the stock, such things wouldn't happen no matter how heavy the recoil. Perhaps for some, pulling the trigger with the ball of the finger tip is something they do out of habit thus creating problems when the gun recoils. Who knows, maybe they do the same on occasion with their shotguns. With the trigger to barrel set up on double rifles following the norm for shotguns I would think most would automatically go front trigger first. If one has done so for many years using just the tip (ball) of their trigger finger, perhaps another carry-over from shooting other rifles with light trigger pull (?), the move to double rifles may mess them up at times. I would say if you instinctively go for the front trigger first, keep it that way and just focus on maintaining the "proper technique" that so many here endorse. It's clear that many NE members spend a good amount of time hunting dangerous game where any little mishap could have dire consequences. I know I wouldn’t want to be questioning myself as to which trigger I was going to pull first if my life was in danger. On the other hand I would expect a PH that spends more time “in the field” hunting dangerous game than any one client, and has acquired the cool head needed to go with the job, could probably make the front to back or back to front choice without pause if he so desired. I see the gun as the impartial participant in all of this although Kuduae brings up an interesting technical consideration in his comment regarding scopes versus iron sights. In the heat of things I suspect Kuduae's noted detail could be easily nullified by many given type of game and range.

In my very first response I believe I made the mistake of not saying "some choose to pull the rear trigger first on big bore guns due to ...". Absolutes have a way of stirring up argument.

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by Buchseman (15/02/12 09:09 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: CptCurl]
      #202556 - 15/02/12 05:52 PM

Quote:

I think the important thing is to operate your DR consistently each time.

If a shooter does best by firing the rear trigger first each time, that's ok because he knows the second shot is forward and not behind the trigger he just fired, and he will instinctively reach forward.

My point above was that my poor brain is hard-wired to reach to the rear immediately upon firing the front trigger, so it would be trouble for me to fire the rear first. Likewise, my poor brain can't handle a single trigger, so I avoid them altogether. I have heard some shotgunners say they can switch back and forth between double trigger and single trigger guns. Still, something has to register in their minds on each occasion. For me, I don't have to think. The finger just moves.

So I'm not meaning to be dogmatic. My point is to do it the same way each time; whichever works best.

Curl



You know if is funny.

I have never had a problem with my Tikka using a single trigger, for the double rifle.

I now have a twin trigger for it to be fitted.

But using borrowed shotguns, say on clays, I have often tried to pull the trigger guard as a second trigger on the usual single trigger shotguns.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: NitroX]
      #210242 - 06/06/12 01:42 PM

Thought I'd update this thread as a result of my current experience.

Have heard that the front trigger is made more "sensitive" as a result of the position and lever angles (etc etc) so that it feels to be about the same weight as the rear. This may be correct - my Merkel will double if I use the rear trigger first and with the standard 570gn load (a lighter 440gn load doesn't double though). But it does sound more like there is something wrong (haven't pulled apart yet) rather than a design error.

By the way I haven't actually experienced a true doubling but have noticed and confirmed when firing single loadings from alternate barrels.

I requested a parts break-down manual from Merkel so I could better understand what to expect before I pulled it apart, and so I didn't loosen the wrong sideplate screw first and have some spring loaded part dislodge before I could see where it's supposed to go/came from.

Anyway they sent a standard manual through and it mentions that the rifle is regulated for rapid firing (2nd barrel fired 6 to 10 seconds after the first) with the right barrel fired first. Probably regulates just as well left barrel first in most cases but they don't give guarantee of regulation this way (ie if it regulates fine left barrel first - fine, if it doesn't, well it wasn't supposed to anyway).

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #214425 - 12/08/12 04:33 PM

Another update - finally got around to partially pulling apart my Merkel.

There was a small bit of timber on the sear for the LH barrel but it wasn't actually on the sear face, and this lock work isn't the one that doubles anyway. Have a look at the photos - the LH trigger assembly has a recoil operated sear block, whereas the RH doesn't. Maybe this actually stops it doubling on RH barrel first? I could pull it out and see if it does, but I won't (ain't broke, don't touch).






That's as far as I got. I will pull out the hammer at some stage. The sear face on the RH barrel looks okay and I'll have to pull the hammer out on that side to see if there is anything on the matching surface face compromising full engagement.

Also noted that the recoil lug is at the very rear of the tang and looks to be bedded - there is a filler between the lug and the timber.

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rigbymauser
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #214473 - 13/08/12 07:42 AM

Having shot my 10bore now for some time I have to conclude for this gun/caliber regulates so much better when pulling the front-trigger-right barrel first, rather then pulling the rear trigger-left barrel. I have stated otherwise before because of using heavy caliber, the the finger could easely activate the rear trigger in the same movement when pulling the front trigger first and cause a doubleshot. Today I when shooting the rifle and it does quite well I could take it for a DG hunt.

Edited by rigbymauser (13/08/12 07:44 AM)

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albertan
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: rigbymauser]
      #214962 - 19/08/12 07:03 PM

Rear trigger first. Front trigger last. No double fire screw ups at precisely the wrong moment. Just my .02$.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #216989 - 19/09/12 10:34 AM





This explains something that has puzzled me for some time about my Merkel 140-2, 470NE double rifle. I’ve had three people accidently double that rifle by pulling the back trigger first, and everyone says this is a malfunction.

Like you found the makers say the rifle was designed to fire the front trigger first. The right trigger has a slightly lighter trigger pull than the back trigger. Now I know why the maker says this. It is because of the inertia trigger block. That allows the right trigger to be lighter without being a “SET “ trigger on the big bores for pin point accuracy.

The strange thing is, I often fire the back trigger first to select a solid that is almost always loaded in that barrel, with a soft point in the right barrel. I have never had a double discharge on this rifle myself in ten years.

This is the way I load this rifle when leaving the hunting car. My reason for this is, I want a soft for the first shot on anything but elephant, and the second shot to be a solid for a possible going away shot.

Thank you for the pictures!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by CptCurl (19/09/12 09:43 PM)

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #216995 - 19/09/12 01:13 PM

I also discovered that if I push the hinged front trigger forward and let it snap back into position quickly, it trip the sear on that side. Maybe that's why it doubles? Maybe my trigger finger makes contact with the front trigger and recoil and allows it to come back quick enough to trip the sear. I can't detect my finger actually making this contact though, although it could be. I should try and film myself and see what happens when I fire it. Probably need a high speed camera though - these can be hired.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #216996 - 19/09/12 01:18 PM

Quote:

...Like you found the makers say the rifle was designed to fire the front trigger first. The right trigger has a slightly lighter trigger pull than the back trigger. Now I know why the maker says this. It is because of the inertia trigger block. That allows the right trigger to be lighter without being a “SET “ trigger on the big bores for pin point accuracy....



I just re-read your post but don't understand what you mean here. The trigger block catches the sear arm for the left hand barrel (rear trigger) as if that one were set more sensitive.

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DarylS
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #217015 - 20/09/12 02:27 AM

Quote:


Like you found the makers say the rifle was designed to fire the front trigger first. The right trigger has a slightly lighter trigger pull than the back trigger. Now I know why the maker says this. It is because of the inertia trigger block. That allows the right trigger to be lighter without being a “SET “ trigger on the big bores for pin point accuracy.
Thank you for the pictures!




This is as Leutenant James Forsyth explained double rifle triggers, back in 1860.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #217019 - 20/09/12 03:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

...Like you found the makers say the rifle was designed to fire the front trigger first. The right trigger has a slightly lighter trigger pull than the back trigger. Now I know why the maker says this. It is because of the inertia trigger block. That allows the right trigger to be lighter without being a “SET “ trigger on the big bores for pin point accuracy....



I just re-read your post but don't understand what you mean here. The trigger block catches the sear arm for the left hand barrel (rear trigger) as if that one were set more sensitive.



No! it is because the rifle is designed to fire the right barrel first, and so the laft trigger doesn’t have to have a heavier than normal trigger pull the maker put an interceptor ( inertia activated sear block) to avoid recoil from the right barrel setting off the left barrel. This explains why firing the left barrel first sometimes causes the right barrel to fire because of the light trigger pull on that barrel. The better design would be to have the recoil interceptor on both sears then it wouldn’t matter which trigger you pulled as long as you didn’t strum the triggers with you finger.

Doubles caused by strumming causes the other barrel to go off because the trigger finger slips past the front trigger and touches the back trigger because of the recoil of the front trigger’s right barrel. In this case the left barrel fires a split second later than the first shot so are really a very quick one, two shots not simultaneous shots.

With a real doubling being caused by the recoil when the first barrel is fired the other barrel is set off because the sear engagement on that barrel is too light. In the Merkel big bore is designed to fire the right first they installed an interceptor on the left barrel to avoid that barrel being set off by the recoil of the right barrel. This way the left barrel can have a light trigger pull as well. Since both barrels have a light trigger pull if the left barrel, (back trigger) is pulled first it sometimes will set off the right barrel as well.

This is what I couldn’t understand about my rifle , because three other people, all pulling the back trigger first caused a double discharge, and I could understand why, or how that was happening. Rt Trigger first the left trigger was blocked, but left trigger first the right trigger was not blocked. The pictures of the design posted has answered my question as to why this happened the way it did.

I hope this is at least as clear as mud!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #217162 - 24/09/12 12:41 PM

Just out of curiosity, when you friends doubled your 470, what was it like? One big bang, or one after the other quickly? What was the recoil like?

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4seventy
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #217171 - 24/09/12 07:04 PM

Quote:

This is what I couldn’t understand about my rifle , because three other people, all pulling the back trigger first caused a double discharge, and I could understand why, or how that was happening. Rt Trigger first the left trigger was blocked, but left trigger first the right trigger was not blocked. The pictures of the design posted has answered my question as to why this happened the way it did.




A double rifle should NEVER double discharge regardless of which trigger is pulled first.

It's funny how DR makers for over 100 years, have never needed an inertia block on their back trigger to prevent doubling.
Why does the Merkel need the inertia block?
It's a dumb idea which could result in having no second shot available when it is really needed.
Double discharges turn a double rifle into a single shot rifle!

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4seventy
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #217188 - 25/09/12 03:51 PM

mauserand9mm,
I'm hoping you can answer a question about the inertia block.

What does the inertia block engage during recoil from firing the right barrel? Does it block part of the (left barrel) trigger assembly shown in your photos, or does it block the (left barrel) sear lever, which is not shown in those photos?

Thanks

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: 4seventy]
      #217196 - 25/09/12 08:56 PM

The sear lever.

Either it's very well fitted (and doesn't get stuck when it actually holds the lever) or it doesn't actually engage. I would be keen to remove it and see if it actually does what it is supposed to, but the risk of "stuffing up" this fine balance of operation (if it is working as it is supposed to) when I re-assembled it precludes me from doing this. The old aint-broke-don't-fix principal applies.

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4seventy
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #217234 - 26/09/12 03:41 PM

Quote:

The sear lever.

Either it's very well fitted (and doesn't get stuck when it actually holds the lever) or it doesn't actually engage. I would be keen to remove it and see if it actually does what it is supposed to, but the risk of "stuffing up" this fine balance of operation (if it is working as it is supposed to) when I re-assembled it precludes me from doing this. The old aint-broke-don't-fix principal applies.



Ok, thanks for that.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Poll : Right Barrel or Left Barrel First [Re: 4seventy]
      #217345 - 29/09/12 10:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

This is what I couldn’t understand about my rifle , because three other people, all pulling the back trigger first caused a double discharge, and I couldn't understand why, or how that was happening. Rt Trigger first the left trigger was blocked, but left trigger first the right trigger was not blocked. The pictures of the design posted has answered my question as to why this happened the way it did.




A double rifle should NEVER double discharge regardless of which trigger is pulled first.

It's funny how DR makers for over 100 years, have never needed an inertia block on their back trigger to prevent doubling.
Why does the Merkel need the inertia block?
It's a dumb idea which could result in having no second shot available when it is really needed.
Double discharges turn a double rifle into a single shot rifle!



4seventy I agree completely that using one trigger or the other should have no effect on a DD, and my rifle has never DDed on me regardless of which trigger I pull first. It just puzzled me as to why 8 or10 other people who have fired it and the previous owner have not had a dd with this rifle, yet three others fireing rifle pulling the back trigger first DID get a double discharge! I also agree that the it was a dumb idea to place any type of stop-gap on only one trigger! It has not played any part in my shooting of the rifle at all so could have been left out.

......................................................

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