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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive
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controlled_feed
.300 member


Reged: 23/05/08
Posts: 227
Loc: NSW, Australia
Another BSA sporter
      #193265 - 07/11/11 09:58 PM

Hello all

This critter has come to live with me for a while. But, please god, someone tell me it hasn't been bubba'd. Whats with these two screws. Has someone tried to drill and tap for scope mounts?


Interestingly, it appears to have a single stage trigger. Was that a standard thing with these sporters or an after market fix.

Was this method of identifying proof common, or is it something I should be aware of?


Here are some more pics. It has been restocked I think. Nice stick though. Yet to shoot it and won't till a smith has a gander at those screws.




Very interesting front sight










Any info that anyone can supply would be great, especially rough vintage.

All numbers match.
Many thanks

CF

--------------------
I was born 100 years too late

Edited by CptCurl (29/12/11 12:07 AM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: controlled_feed]
      #193267 - 07/11/11 10:03 PM


Nice.


Genuine question. What is the Square cut out of wood from the stock on the right hand side ?

I have never seen it before but I know BA about BSA's and Lee Speeds.

.

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controlled_feed
.300 member


Reged: 23/05/08
Posts: 227
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: 500Nitro]
      #193268 - 07/11/11 10:12 PM

500Nitro

I think it is for the magazine cut off that existed on the rifle that was the donor of the timber.

CF

--------------------
I was born 100 years too late

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Brithunter
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Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Lincolnshire, England
Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: controlled_feed]
      #193274 - 07/11/11 11:03 PM

From what I can gather BSA took fore end off the military line and sporterised them for thei sportign rifles. The butt stocks appear to have new sporting production. If you pull the fore stock off chances are you will find a broad arrow impressed into the recoil shoulder. Well that's what I have found on my own one.

--------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down!

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jc5
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Reged: 10/10/07
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: Brithunter]
      #193287 - 08/11/11 02:34 AM

There will be no broad arrow on this one. BSA never sporterised Lee Enfields that had been in British service. This one was purposely built for civilian sale in the 1920s. If you find a broad arrow that means something has been swapped out after it was sold, or (rarely) that it was a commercial model drafted into service during the war.

The forend wood is unusual because the shape and checkering seem correct for a commercial BSA, but the cutout for the absent charger bridge really shoudn't be there. It could be that this was one of the first out the door after production resumed in 1919 and BSA only had wood available with this cutout. That's just speculation. I have seen one other with this type of forend (that had the cutout but didn't have a charger bridge). BSA was also offering models at this time with the charger bridge, so we cannot assume it is incorrect without closer examination. Then again, both forend and buttstock could be replacements...hard to tell without more photos.

The crown over BM is your commercial Birmingham proof mark. The words on the barrel about the MkVII cartridge were put there by BSA (not by the proof house). This was mainly to reassure customers about the sighting. BSA continued to offer rifles sighted for the earlier MkVI cartridge.

The single stage trigger was normal for these commercial rifles. It was the old pre-SMLE type of trigger.

When you say that the numbers are all matching, what do you mean? Does 15202 appear anywhere else on the rifle?

As for the holes, my first Lee Speed had the same ones. Almost certainly for scope mounts (why else?), but this would have been done by the owner or his gunsmith, not by BSA. Definitely have it checked out to be sure it's safe. Headspace too, obviously.

The front sight protector was a pre-war BSA item, found on many of the sporting rifles.

Would you care to fill out my Lee Speed survey? Please drop me a PM and I will send it .

Thanks!

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.

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controlled_feed
.300 member


Reged: 23/05/08
Posts: 227
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: jc5]
      #193300 - 08/11/11 06:51 AM

jc5 PM sent

That number appears in 2 or 3 spots on the rifle.

The butt stock is defnitely a replacement. Has the Broadarrow on the top of the steel butt plate and very faintly underneath, near the socket.

Don't see any Broad Arrows anymhere else though.

CF

--------------------
I was born 100 years too late

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Brithunter
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Reged: 17/03/10
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: jc5]
      #193322 - 08/11/11 12:52 PM

Quote:

There will be no broad arrow on this one. BSA never sporterised Lee Enfields that had been in British service. This one was purposely built for civilian sale in the 1920s. If you find a broad arrow that means something has been swapped out after it was sold, or (rarely) that it was a commercial model drafted into service during the war.

The forend wood is unusual because the shape and checkering seem correct for a commercial BSA, but the cutout for the absent charger bridge really shoudn't be there. It could be that this was one of the first out the door after production resumed in 1919 and BSA only had wood available with this cutout. That's just speculation. I have seen one other with this type of forend (that had the cutout but didn't have a charger bridge). BSA was also offering models at this time with the charger bridge, so we cannot assume it is incorrect without closer examination. Then again, both forend and buttstock could be replacements...hard to tell without more photos.

The crown over BM is your commercial Birmingham proof mark. The words on the barrel about the MkVII cartridge were put there by BSA (not by the proof house). This was mainly to reassure customers about the sighting. BSA continued to offer rifles sighted for the earlier MkVI cartridge.

The single stage trigger was normal for these commercial rifles. It was the old pre-SMLE type of trigger.

When you say that the numbers are all matching, what do you mean? Does 15202 appear anywhere else on the rifle?

As for the holes, my first Lee Speed had the same ones. Almost certainly for scope mounts (why else?), but this would have been done by the owner or his gunsmith, not by BSA. Definitely have it checked out to be sure it's safe. Headspace too, obviously.

The front sight protector was a pre-war BSA item, found on many of the sporting rifles.

Would you care to fill out my Lee Speed survey? Please drop me a PM and I will send it .

Thanks!



Well all I can say on my purely commercial BSA sporting rifle if you remove the forestock there is a large broad arrow impressed into the recoil shoulder. The forestock not only is of sporting profile but is chequered and has a horn tip and the profile is the same as the other BSA sporters of it's type. The rifle was built by BSA and retailed by Wm Powell & Son of Birmingham.

--------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down!

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jc5
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Reged: 10/10/07
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: Brithunter]
      #193405 - 09/11/11 02:03 AM

I have learned never to say never! But I am certain that BSA never sporterised Lee Enfields that had been in British service. However, there may be other explanations for how that broad arrow got there. Could you post a picture of it?

Thanks!

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Brithunter
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: jc5]
      #193459 - 09/11/11 10:55 PM

Not for some time as I am denied access to my collection and have no photo of the marking saved so will have to take one once I can get to the rifle. Right now that is not possible and we do not know how long this will be for.

I am assuming the wood was pre marked then switched from the military line to the sporting line in the factory when new. The British Government was good at changing contracts which is why BSA moved into the sporting field and diversified into Cars, motorcycles, machinery and tools as they could not rely upon orders from the military and government. Yet the same government expected BSA to be able to immediately fill orders when they deemed to place them.. Nothing has changed much the government still seems t operate the same way.

--------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down!

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Rowdy
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Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: Brithunter]
      #193734 - 14/11/11 01:50 AM

I tend to agree that BSA selected a lot of their wood from the military production line
especially for this model which is the #4 sporting carbine.
The butt looks correct to me and should be of military profile with checkering.
If it has a sheet steel buttplate without a trap and a single screw sling swivel then
it would date from 1904/5 yet the SMLE Mk.1 did not have a charger bridge.
That cutout is a bit of a puzzle which can only date from 1907.

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Old_Glass
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: Rowdy]
      #208023 - 04/05/12 03:56 AM

I have the impression that most pre-war (WWI) Lee Speed or Lee Enfield sporting rifles were built on Lee Enfield Carbine actions, which were I believe the first Lee Enfield rifles to be disposed of by the War Department (around 1907?), and were probably the only ones to be disposed of until after WWI.

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controlled_feed
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Reged: 23/05/08
Posts: 227
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: Old_Glass]
      #208920 - 24/05/12 03:47 PM

A bit of an update with this rifle.

Finally got around to taking the forewood off. Brithunter was right, there is Broadarrow and a 2 digit number on the recoil shoulder.

Still can't say for sure, but having looked at a lot of photos of Lee Speeds, the butt stock is a replacement, I think. It's got the military profile and military markings and just doesn't look right. Don't know if the forestock is a replacement or not. Probably never will know.

The numbers on the flat on the top right of the socket, underside of the bolt handle and on the bottom of the barrel all match.

Might be a good candidate for a restock down the track.

Also found a number on the right side of the front sight hood, it is RD (the D is in superscript with a line under it) No 45468. Is that number of significance?

CF

--------------------
I was born 100 years too late

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Rowdy
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: controlled_feed]
      #208982 - 25/05/12 03:41 PM

The #4 Sporting carbine was a sporter based on the SMLE - it had an SMLE light profile barrel
and a checkered SMLE profile butt - at first a flat steel plate and later the brass buttplate.
Only the sporting rifles had the oil finished pistol grip style butt.

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controlled_feed
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Reged: 23/05/08
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: Rowdy]
      #208985 - 25/05/12 04:13 PM

Rowdy, could be where the butt stock came from originally, although the checkering is very amutuerish looking, but as you can tell from the pictures. it's not a #4.

CF

--------------------
I was born 100 years too late

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jc5
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Reged: 10/10/07
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: controlled_feed]
      #208993 - 25/05/12 11:45 PM

CF,


When Rowdy says "No.4 Sporting RIfle" he doesn't mean it's a WW2 vintage "No.4 rifle" of the military pattern made at Maltby, Fazakerely, etc. That is something different. He is using the term that BSA used for their pre-war sporters...there was also a No 1,2,3 sporting rifle, plus one in .375 Nitro Express (not the magnum). These sporter numbers are purely a BSA thing; they don't correspond to the military designations for service rifles (SMLE No.1, No.4, etc). These BSA rifles were all based on Long Lee type actions or SMLE type actions.

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: jc5]
      #208994 - 26/05/12 12:08 AM

I'd thought that right side notch was for the rolled projection on the magazine cuttoff, as-is/was the slot on the right side of the action with the lowered wood. It appears to me this forewood was originally a military piece of wood off a LeeSpeed with a magazine cuttoff.

Bear with me, as I'm certainly not any sort of an authority on these rifles, nor do I have more than a working knowledge about them. This is just a guess as to the nature of the reduced height of the ejection port area wood and the notch on my part. I thumb notch would be rounded, if it had one, not angular and square.

The screws appear to be poor plugs for holes drilled and tapped for the front 2 holes for a el-cheapo Enfield scope base.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rowdy
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: DarylS]
      #209219 - 27/05/12 11:50 PM



Edited by Rowdy (27/05/12 11:59 PM)

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Rowdy
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Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: Rowdy]
      #209221 - 28/05/12 12:01 AM



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2152hq
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Reged: 20/05/12
Posts: 126
Loc: USA
Re: Another BSA sporter [Re: Rowdy]
      #209372 - 29/05/12 12:04 PM

Any chance the wood is sporterized take-off wood from a CLLE?
That would explain the charger bridge cut,,
though maybe the bbl channel size is incorrect .

Nice rifles.

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