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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun
      #192672 - 28/10/11 10:12 AM

Hi Guys

I have been chasing this gun for several years - I gather it has been on this forum before but cannot find the thread

I bought it as a smooth bored Paradox from Mick Shepherd after it had been held by the police after an attempt by the police to link him with organised crime

After a long haggle I collected it and started checking details from the Paradox book by David J Baker & Roger E Lake, it was soon apparent it was not a Paradox

There was only one? 12b? paradox with damascus barrels

The top strap is not extended like all Paradoxes

The serial number (by guess and barrel inscription of "winner of 1883 trials", and the book) is about 5 years too early for a Paradox

Was it a cut down shotgun? - the foresight (see pic) looks original, and the inscription "Charge 10 drams, case 3 3/4 inches" (pic) is above normal shotgun loads

A telephone call to Holland & Holland giving the serial No. reulted in a pleasant surprise!
They have the original order book from 1884 and half an hour later I had a scan in my hands (pic)
Now that is what I call service!!
They also offered a free originality and safety check which I took up last week

Their only comment was that the Nitro Proof was not original and unnecessary!!

Weight is 14 lbs 3 oz and bore at .825 which compares well with the Nitro Proof at .824

If I wished to shoot it what size round ball should I use - patched/wadding? - Daryl? - anyone?





Nice fences, as always


Plain belly



Charge 10 drams, case 3 3/4 inches



"Winner of all the Field Rife Trials 1883" + clear Damascus



Nice ivory support for the foresight



Bores are very clean but need a scrub!


Nitro Proof



Top strap on Paradox is much longer



Sold to Mr Fountaine - 8 bore ball gun 26 1/16" barrels etc

I was disappointed at first it was not a Paradox but on reflection an original H&H is OK!

Comments please

TH44

Edited by CptCurl (25/11/11 11:52 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: TH44]
      #192673 - 28/10/11 10:16 AM


Very nice indeed.


Re "Top strap on Paradox is much longer"

Do you mean the top strap is longer than the normal extended metal ?


You will have fun with it, that is for sure.

.

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gatsby
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: 500Nitro]
      #192685 - 28/10/11 01:25 PM

Strap doesnot go over comb. Nothing wrong with ball guns, I have one myself.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Orvar
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: gatsby]
      #192696 - 28/10/11 04:37 PM

TH44: great one. Had my eye on this one from Mick's a few times... glad its found a good home

Hope she shoots well!

O

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CommandCar
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: TH44]
      #192910 - 02/11/11 06:44 AM

Nice Ball Gun,

If you are getting tooled up to load for that, I suggest you read (if you have not already) Ross Seyfried's piece in Double Gun Journal. He wrote a two piece series called "Pieces of Eight", one on the rifles and one on shotguns. I don't have the issue #'s here, but will dig them up if you need. There you will learn what components to collect, at least to give you a good start.

Wads are available at Clay & Game in the UK. There was also a big run of 8 Ga. Winchester primed plastic hulls a few years back. They are available here (not sure about shipping to the UK) and in the UK, but I don't remember who carried them there. The Remington plastic, some say, are much more durable and better for double rifles. We can get them in once fired condition here in the US... A third choice, since the plastics are only 3 1/4" long is to have custom brass hulls turned for your gun. You would make chamber casts (do both) and either send them or check stock dimentions with http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/. $100 for 10, but I hear they last and last.

There is one other reloading manual/book on 8 bore shotshell loads by Tom Armbrust that may be of help. http://www.precisionreloading.com/ sells that one. He has links to sources of 8 bore components in the UK or scotland if I remember correctly. Good reference item at the least.

There is a fellow in the UK that makes great ball moulds any size you like the link is here: http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/ I would think you would want .825-.827" but have no personal experience with smooth bores.

More than you asked, but I am trying to be all inclusive.

Good Shooting

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TH44
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: CommandCar]
      #192917 - 02/11/11 10:40 AM

Thanks guys for the comments, much appreciated

CommandCar - I spent much time over the weekend going through old posts on this forum and got some of the info you have kindly sent but not all. This is an excellent forum with guys like yourself going out of your way to help - "more is better", I always want to learn as much as I can, thank you very much

I will order the Tom Armbrust book this week, also call Rocky Mountain Co., as I want a couple of inert brass rounds for display so will use their cases anyway. The Clay and Game contact is good, I will get their wads etc.
The Tanner mould is a must, although I am not sure of the size to go for, Daryl is very keen on patching Round Balls, if he does not pick this up I will pm him and OmnivorousBob for their opinions

Good shooting to you all

TH44

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TH44
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: TH44]
      #192918 - 02/11/11 11:26 AM

CommandCar

Sorry I forgot - I have not read, or have access to Ross Seyfried's articles in Double Gun Journal

Do you have any idea of where I can get copies?

Many thanks

TH44

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CommandCar
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: TH44]
      #192937 - 03/11/11 12:10 AM

TH44,

The issues of DGJ on the 8's are Volume 12, issue 2, Summer 2001 (shotguns) and Vol 12, issue 3, Autumn 2001 (rifles). These back issues are available here:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/doublegunjournal_backissues.htm

I also forgot to mention that you will need a sizing die set to remove the "Belt" from the Industrial Hulls made by Winchester and Remington. The 8's are only made for industrial applications and are loaded to pressures that will disintigrate guns like your Holland. The ammunition makers add a raised belt near the head of the hull to hinder chambering in sporting arms. Removal is an easy process with the tooling made by John Millar in BC, Canada 250 442-5616.

CC

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jaz
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: CommandCar]
      #192955 - 03/11/11 11:18 AM

Very nice early Ball Gun. It is early, 1884 or so. This is before they did extended top straps. The gun has a charge of 10 drams which is a bunch. I have an 8 Paradox, and that is 8-10 drams. There were more than one damascus 12 made. The serial number of early paradoxes were 11XXX then 15XXX.
I would get 20 Rocky mountain 8 bore cases made with the "H&H 8" embossed as the headstamp, and shoot about bore diameter balls. 69 to 74 grains of Blue dot should set you free...

Mick is a friend of mine. I should of bought that gun 8 years ago!
JZ

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gatsby
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: jaz]
      #192966 - 03/11/11 03:46 PM

Quote:

Very nice early Ball Gun. It is early, 1884 or so. This is before they did extended top straps. The gun has a charge of 10 drams which is a bunch. I have an 8 Paradox, and that is 8-10 drams. There were more than one damascus 12 made. The serial number of early paradoxes were 11XXX then 15XXX.
I would get 20 Rocky mountain 8 bore cases made with the "H&H 8" embossed as the headstamp, and shoot about bore diameter balls. 69 to 74 grains of Blue dot should set you free...

Mick is a friend of mine. I should of bought that gun 8 years ago!
JZ



Not sure what, when and why Holland first extended the strap over comb but it was before 1884. Probably not used unless asked for originally.

Can you get and use black powder? Swiss 2f or Kik 1 1/2 would be a lot of fun. Nothing like a stout load of 10 drams of black powder to get the blood going.Get some brass but industrial plastic is easy to use and will take a full load of BP. t
These tools were made by Millar, ball, wad and card over black pretty staight forward.




Jaz;
You [Email]F@#%ed[/Email] up letting this gun get away, it looks to be a keeper.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by CptCurl (25/11/11 11:53 PM)

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TH44
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: gatsby]
      #194039 - 18/11/11 07:41 AM

Thanks guys for the positive comments and advice, also Daryl and Omnivorous Bob for their pm s

I have ordered most of the stuff and will shoot it when time allows!

It is definitely a keeper

TH44

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: TH44]
      #194874 - 25/11/11 11:54 PM

Wow! That's a great ball gun. I'm envious.

Thanks for sharing. Please let us know how your load development comes along.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: CptCurl]
      #194901 - 26/11/11 05:14 AM

So - how's it shooting? To early yet?

In re-reading this entire thread, I'd only go with the patched,undersized balls if full sized balls didn't regulate well &more experimenting is needed.

I'd also try some harder alloys than pure,like WW or a WW/pure mix, due to the pure lead's propensity for obturating when fired in cfg. guns. Seems more so than when in muzzleloading guns. If completely pure, they will forshorten and enlarge in diameter. I'm of the stong opinion that a perfectly spherical ball will be more accurate from a smoothbore, than a virtually flat ended cylinder that is shorter than it's dieameter.

The harder, bore sized balls might be more accurate, but a patched ball leaves lube that softens fouling preventing it from adhering to the bores. Lubed wads can help with bore sized balls.

What a beast - 273.5gr. of powder - eyowch!

Good luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: DarylS]
      #194920 - 26/11/11 11:14 AM

Daryl

I have just now got Jeff Tanner moulds in both .825 and .800. I have wheel weight and pure lead. Also plastic industrial cases and tools to reload, possibly a few brass cases coming

I only have 3? fg BP will try to get 2 fg for your patched ball loads. Chasing some Blue Dot for Omnivorous Bob's options

I have recently had quite a lot of extra work - [ so called semi-retirement does not seem to happen ? - the money helps with this obsession? for these guns] !!!!

Realistically, probably the New Year is more likely but I want to use this gun as it was meant to be used so when I make the time I will shoot it

Many thanks for your (and other's) advice, much appreciated

Tony

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: TH44]
      #194924 - 26/11/11 12:22 PM

I can't wait to see how it runs for you.
New-year's fireworks for sure, big charges of black will light the sky near you!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Grenadier
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: tinker]
      #200791 - 27/01/12 06:33 PM

Wonderful gun. I'm sure it will be a joy to fire. Please let us know how it goes.

--------------------
~

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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: Grenadier]
      #200807 - 28/01/12 02:16 AM

OK - the new year is here - we're waitingggggggggg

BTW - 1F should work just fine as well. 3F is too quick burning I believe.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: DarylS]
      #200848 - 28/01/12 09:09 AM

OK OK OK I have failed!!! - must do better!

I have everything but time - industrial cases but not resized :-( have found and ordered 3 3/4 inch plastic cases here soon :-)
chased some Blue Dot but I will try to get some 2F tomorrow at the range then I will have even less excuse

TH44

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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: TH44]
      #200855 - 28/01/12 11:21 AM

Sounds good. We know you're getting things together. Sorry for pushing. I still haven't done the testing I was planning on doing prior to Fall. I-too have some Blue Dot & was going to try it in the 12 bore - but for me SR4759 will work better. You'd think someone who isn't working, would have all the time in the world. Stuff just keeps getting in the way.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: DarylS]
      #201061 - 30/01/12 02:01 AM

After last post I considered my inaction and decided to act as range day Saturday
At midnight I found 4 8 bore cardboard shotshells and removed the shot.
Put in fibre wad, grease cookie, milk carton wad and .824 Round Ball (all in workshop doing nothing!)
Rolled edge in fingers & put lube around ball

Obviously no wife (or ex wife) living in!

Took to range yesterday, better results than expected - 4 inch group at 20 ish yards offhand - probably as good as I can shoot anyway



I put on extra jacket fearing sore shoulder but recoil quite mild (similar to 12g in shirt)

Will now chase 2F & Blue dot for full loads

Thanks Daryl for well deserved boot!!

TH44

Edited by CptCurl (05/02/12 01:22 AM)

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gatsby
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: TH44]
      #201070 - 30/01/12 05:01 AM

GREAT fun!!! I am sure the anticipation was worse than any recoil. What was your powder load?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinkerModerator
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: gatsby]
      #201074 - 30/01/12 06:39 AM

I'm guessing thats two left barrel hits on the left, two right barrel hits on the right.
Is that correct?

Did you recover your roundballs?





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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TH44
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: tinker]
      #201089 - 30/01/12 10:43 AM

Gatsby - because of the very short notice, I had a few 8 bore shot loads, BBB and No.1 shot from several years ago - reloads on industrial paper cases. I weighed the shot at 2 3/4 oz. so thought that a 2 oz RB would be ok
I will check more closely when I reload myself

Tinker - I was so pleased I was so close to the mark I did not check properly but the first R was to the right.
I loaded them singly in case the recoil pushed the ball up the other barrel.
I also forgot to dig the roundballs out - will remember next time!

TH

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: TH44]
      #201091 - 30/01/12 11:26 AM

Keep up the good work!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 8 bore ball gun [Re: tinker]
      #201099 - 30/01/12 11:59 AM

The separation does appear to be 2 lefts and 3 rights. Since we know the first right is to the right, chances are the other right hand hole is the other right. This is great news to be so close at the start.

Same load and smaller/lighter patched ball, or a slight reduction in charge might being them right together, bore axis apart. Also, changing wads can change the poi's.

What charge?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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