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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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jaz
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Loc: Northeast US
Lion shot with Paradox
      #188502 - 25/08/11 08:22 AM

This is a short video of my buddy shooting a lion with a Paradox drilling, 12/12/360. The first shot went through the heart, the others were off the mark. The cat was attacking on pure adrenalin .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf2LcrOzY8c

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500Nitro
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: jaz]
      #188505 - 25/08/11 08:35 AM


Just shows that a heart shot isn't necessarily a stopper.


Nice gun.

.

Edited by 500Nitro (25/08/11 11:43 AM)

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CommandCar
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: jaz]
      #188514 - 25/08/11 09:56 AM

Is that the European 10 lb Paradox drilling that Morris Hallowell had about 6 years ago? The one I looked at was an ejector drilling, fabulous, but a full 10 lbs.

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jaz
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #188518 - 25/08/11 11:22 AM

Good eye. He bought it from Morris as a European calibre drilling. Turns out it was made by Westley Richards
and was a double Super Magnum Explora over a 360 Westley Nitro! Quite a find. He also shot an elephant with same rifle.
JZ

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xausa
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: jaz]
      #188519 - 25/08/11 11:55 AM

It looks as though that lion was shot from some kind of raised platform, maybe even one on top of a vehicle. Where would such an arrangement be allowed?

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500Nitro
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: xausa]
      #188520 - 25/08/11 12:07 PM



I'm not commenting on being shooting from a Vehicle as we don't know the circumstances of the whole situation.


I thought they were standing on the back of a truck type set up with the bars along the edge being the sides of the truck.

I then read what was below the video and it clearly says Truck and that the PH hit the metal bars with one of the bullets when the Lioness climbed up onto the back of the truck.

.

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CommandCar
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: jaz]
      #188524 - 25/08/11 02:46 PM


JAZ,

Interesting, that drilling was quite reasonably priced and a very slow mover. I was impressed with the workmanship, but thought the weight was excessive (AND it was missing the scope). I'm sure it tames the Explora recoil well. If I remember correctly it was marked Nowotny?

Would you (or he) share any loading data for the paradox? Also, how does it group at 50 and 100?

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500Nitro
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #188525 - 25/08/11 02:50 PM


"Nowotny?"

Why does that name ring a bell ?


Anyone ?

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lancaster
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: 500Nitro]
      #188526 - 25/08/11 03:46 PM

of course, Nowotny in Prag - best gun and rifle maker
sounds much more plausible than made by Westley Richards

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Ben
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: lancaster]
      #188531 - 25/08/11 05:11 PM

I wonder if Nowotny is related to Walter Nowotny, the Me. 262 pilot?

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500Nitro
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: Ben]
      #188532 - 25/08/11 05:17 PM

Quote:

I wonder if Nowotny is related to Walter Nowotny, the Me. 262 pilot?




How common a name is it in the region ?

I see he was from Austria.

.

Edited by 500Nitro (25/08/11 05:19 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: 500Nitro]
      #188540 - 25/08/11 07:47 PM

you may know that the lands of the bohemian crown were since the deepest middle age part of the Holy Roman Empire and later the Habsburg monarchy. the name Nowotny is without doubt of czech origin but in the centurys before 1918 bohemians of czech nationality (in older times there were so many bohemians of german nationality like of czech nationality)were going to the capital Vianna to making some kind of career there.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: lancaster]
      #188567 - 26/08/11 02:01 AM

What load was used on the cat - 12 bore - what bullet weight? If .360 - what bullet weight?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: DarylS]
      #188572 - 26/08/11 03:31 AM

The comments from the YouTube video page:

We had been on the ground tracking with the bushman, lost tracks and were leaving the area. This lioness was not the target, but as you can see it was necessary to shoot.

We were alerted by the growl as we slowly drove through long grass. As my long time PH friend, Gene Small, later said "When a lion's tail moves that way, it's coming no matter what."

I was using a very unique, one of a kind rifle made by Nowatny. See Double Gun Journal Autumn 2007 article by Sherman Bell (Not English make). It is an ejector drilling designed especially for dangerous game hunting. The top barrels are 2 ¾ inch Super Magnum Explora for a Paradox style bullet and the bottom barrel is a 400-360 Westley Richards Nitro. My Super Magnum Explora regulated with 860 grain bullets at about 950 FPS. The 400-360 Westley fired a 310 Woodleigh bullet at 2125 FPS. The drilling has an original claw mount system and a modern Zeiss scope. Its weight is 10 pounds with scope. The rifle was purchased off of http://www.gunsinternational.com

I only loaded the two top barrels (mistake). I shot the lioness in the chest, took the heart and the 860 grain bullet stopped under the hide in the other end. She came at us quite furiously and instantly. I fired again only hitting her through the skin on the back having no effect on the charge. Another P.H. fired and hit the side rail of the truck (hear the metallic ping on the video) at the last moment. She then jumped on the truck with us and I held her off with my empty gun barrel for one to two seconds until she fell off and expired from the heart shot. Her paws and mouth were only a couple feet from our faces and the truck and were covered in blood.

As a comment, the three trackers were nowhere to be found. But most importantly, PH Eugene Small (ES Safaris) never stopped filming even when this deadly threat was less than two feet away. That was a close one, we're not professional camera folks, this is just what happened.

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: jaz]
      #188581 - 26/08/11 05:19 AM

FOR CERTAIN, ONE WOULDN'T HAVE WANTED TO BE ON THE GROUND, DOING THAT SHOOTING, OR ONE WOULD HAVE HAD SOME SERIOUS WOUNDS FROM THE ENCOUNTER.

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CommandCar
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: NitroX]
      #188593 - 26/08/11 09:48 AM

JAZ,

I read Sherman's write up on the Nowotny. He reports that the 740 grain nei paradox slug crossed, so he shifted to the NEI 870 grain fosbery slug. He almost certainly used Unique, although does not mention so. He reports groups of 4 1/2" @50 yards with the paradox and rifle using iron sights. With the scope (+1 Lb), the paradox slugs crossed 2 1/2". He worked the rifle out to at least 100 yards, but the paradox was limited to 50 yards.

What is the evidence to suggest this drilling was originally regulated with the Super Magnum Explora round? I don't think it was made by Westley Richards and does not have SM Explora type rifled choke. I recall the bores were a little rough. I'd love to know the bore diameters and if they were touched up or not? Also, do you know the date of manufacture?

Does the Nowatny reside near us? I'd love to see how the Blue Dot rounds perform in it.

Edited by CommandCar (26/08/11 11:18 AM)

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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #188599 - 26/08/11 11:29 AM

CC
Nowatny, was a very repected, CZ gun maker as previously mentioned. I do not know all the details but it is believed that Nowatny sub contracted WR to make the gun. The owner who used it in the video (the gun has been resold) is a most knowledgeable collector and also owns a Super Magnum Explora. He said to me when he picked it up he knew it was English...

I know the owner did other "tuning" to the gun after getting it back from Sherman. The 10 pounds makes sense to me as the Super Magnum is very difficult to shoot at 8 lbs., as the recoil is so fierce.

I know Ross shoots a "Duplex" load in his Super Magnum to get the proper velocity without exceeding pressure. Holland used a duplex load as well in their 40 grain guns. It was cordite and, not sure here, but I believe "gun cotton" or even a charge of black powder. There is also another proprietary powder that Tom Armbrust uses to get the proper velocity.

IMHO, there is no guns more difficult to load for than the Fosberry bore rifles.

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9.3x57
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: jaz]
      #188600 - 26/08/11 12:35 PM

Is it common to road hunt in that district?

It's pretty common here except for bear, mountain lion and elk which normally require shank's mare.

Just curious.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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ellenbr
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: 9.3x57]
      #188613 - 26/08/11 04:21 PM

J. Novotny of Praha peddled several drillings with paradox type rifling but after the 1870-1880 period I am not aware of him sourcing the Brits for any components and have serious reservations that he would have sourced WR, although the possibility exists. A glance at the proofmarks will tell the tale. This J. Novotny peddled example here on NE was more than likely made by Franz Jaeger as it has his patented ejectors, which are seen on several of the Berlin contingent of firemarms merchants and that may be the link:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....=true#Post20443

I believe Johann(Jan?) Novotny of Praga hung out his shingle in 1865 and may have acquired the shop of Anton Vincent Lebeda(1797-1857) of Praze.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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ellenbr
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: ellenbr]
      #188614 - 26/08/11 04:38 PM

Me thinks the following image of the marks to be that of the one in question if the drilling was acquired from Hallowell & Co.:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (27/08/11 10:11 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: ellenbr]
      #188620 - 26/08/11 06:59 PM

not soo good to see but looks like proofed in Prag

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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ellenbr
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: lancaster]
      #188625 - 26/08/11 07:22 PM

Final proof in Praha but sourced in the white from Suhl or in a later state(note "Crown" over "U", encircled 12 & 118/35 pre-rifled bore diameter stamp). I don't know what mark(s) would lead one to think Westley Richards unless it was somehow the trademark Crowned JN(script). It was sourced in the white sometime prior to 1907 and I think Franz Jaeger's ejector patent to date around that, maybe earlier in 1905 but let me check. At some point it looks like it returned to Germany, or maybe the client was there, for the post 1912 Suhl Nitro proof. Maybe the Nitro proof was a condition of the sale.




I'm pretty sure I lifted these listing, possibly 1930s, of the Berlin firearm merchant contingent from a post by Martin Krause in 2006. Any of the listed concerns could have taken J. Novonty's order but I hedge my bets with Ludwig Schiwy & F.W. Vandrey & Company.

I'm not sure when Ludwig Schiwy acquired the (Fa.)F.W. Vandrey & Company, which may have had it's roots in Hamburg:



There are a couple examples of sporting arms with the name F.W. Vandrey & Company along side J. Novotny of Praha, so there was some type of business relationship there. My best guess is that J. Novotny of Praha placed an order with the F.W. Vandrey & Company firm, which Ludwig Schiwy may have owned at the time, and then the F.W. Vandrey & Company firm sourced a Suhl concern for the longarm. Some sources give that Ludwig Schiwy was born in the 1880s and if the early 1880s he could have hung out his shingle after obtaining his master's sheepskin at the time of this sporting weapon and acquired the F.W. Vandrey firm and established the main office, or the satellite office, in Berlin, where he was a member of the elite Diana hunting club of Berlin, which might account for his upper rung clients along with Hermann Goering. Several of Ludwig Schiwy examples have the Franz Jaeger ejector type and I would guess there was a close working relationship there. Also the muzzleshell type side frame reinforcement seems to have originated in Suhl. The period between WWI & WWII looks to be the pinnacle of the F.W. Vandrey & Company & Ludwig Schiwy's efforts. It appears he expired in the 1950s.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (27/08/11 10:13 PM)

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ellenbr
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: ellenbr]
      #188705 - 27/08/11 11:56 PM



http://www.bonhams.com/eur/auction/16758/lot/139/

After some thought in being somewhat removed from my notes, I think Ludwig Schiwy was born circa 1880 and expired in the late 1950s. It appears that there was a strong sourcing relationship between the F.W. Vandrey & Company Hamburg & J. Novotny of Praze early on predating Ludwig Schiwy's acquisition of the firm. Also it appears there are several F.W. Vandrey & Company examples that wear the tradename Herold; therefore, a strong working relationship existed between the F.W. Vandrey & Company and Franz E. Jäger. This would go a long way in explaining the Franz E. Jäger type ejectors found on F.W. Vandrey & Company sporting arms. So for arguments sake let's say Ludwig Schiwy was born in 1880 then it is possible by 1903 or 1904 he could have attained the rank of meister büchsenmacher and would have hung out his shingle at that point. At approximately the same time he could have acquired the F.W. Vandrey & Company concern and added the Berlin address to the F.W. Vandrey & Company Hamburg firm. There were pretty much 2 avenues in the sporting weapons realm: firearms merchant or the best of the best gunsmith with little recognition with the exception of those small marks found on the sporting weapons. The Suhl/Zella-Mehlis area had a small pool of the very best of the best mechanics and the rest of Europe sourced them for components as well as finished sporting weapons.

As a postscript, Ludwig Schiwy was reduced to an airgun retailer post WWII till the time of his demise. Quite a stoop from outfitting Hermann Göring to peddling airguns.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (26/11/11 12:32 AM)

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: ellenbr]
      #188726 - 28/08/11 07:35 AM

Nitro, as far as I am aware it is illegal to shoot any unwounded game from a vehicle in Africa, and also in most parts of the world, not sure what to make of this ? best, Mike (gamewardens on photosafaris and game culling etc excepted of course)

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fuhrmann
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Re: Lion shot with Paradox [Re: lancaster]
      #188742 - 28/08/11 05:32 PM

Quote:

you may know that the lands of the bohemian crown were since the deepest middle age part of the Holy Roman Empire and later the Habsburg monarchy. the name Nowotny is without doubt of czech origin but in the centurys before 1918 bohemians of czech nationality (in older times there were so many bohemians of german nationality like of czech nationality)were going to the capital Vianna to making some kind of career there.



Lancaster,

yes, qitue a part of Vienna is coming from Bohemia, see here : http://www.lyrics85.com/GEORG-KREISLER-TELEFONBUCHPOLKA-LYRICS/386633/

Also think about "Johann Springer, vormals Mathias Nowotny" in Vienna.

Regards,
fuhrmann

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