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Bigfive
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Lion Hunting
      #1881 - 05/03/03 12:25 AM

Hi all,
Got something interesting to ask all of you.I have my own opinion to my question but first I'd like to hear your explanation.
Why do we hunt Lion,wich is a SOFT SKINNED animal with all these big calibers.Why not simply use your .308Win??

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 1528
Loc: Vermont, USA
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Bigfive]
      #1883 - 05/03/03 12:41 AM

Bigfive,

I am going to guess for shock and knock down power. I have noticed with feral cats they seem highly tuned as far as their nervous systems go. They seem to be able to spring up and run pretty well even when very well hit, meaning right in the vitals.

I imagine cats like lions which are extremely strong will also have a lot of will power to attack even when shot.

A larger caliber may help prevent this with greater shock or a quicker death.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures

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Westley_Richards
.224 member


Reged: 03/01/03
Posts: 33
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Bigfive]
      #1885 - 05/03/03 09:57 AM

Bigfive;
I have only been on one lion hunt. It was pitch black at 2 in the morning. We were attempting to stake out a dead cow in Namibia. By flashlight earlier we had spotted fresh tracks. We were using .375 H&H rifles. In the night they seemed too small. By the time we got back to camp, my teeth were chattering. Perhaps, my imagination ran away with me; I saw lions in every shadow where ever our flashlight wasn't shining. I remember thinking that a .375 was too small. My understanding is that a .308 or 30-06 or about any 30 caliber rifle is fine for hunting lion provided you don't wound him or he doesn't charge. after that I want faster running shoes than you. From my brief experience the size of the lion rifle = resonable caliber x amount of darkness x size of flashlight x size of tracks x volumn of growl - proficency of riflecraft. Next hunt it's the Krieghoff for me.
Westley Richards

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It's in the salt.

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IronBuck
.300 member


Reged: 11/01/03
Posts: 237
Loc: Pittsburgh PA, USA
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Westley_Richards]
      #1886 - 05/03/03 10:56 AM

I agree with the other posts. It's the "dead ones" that get you. You could make a shot that eventually would be fatal with a smaller caliber gun, but the animal has enough life left to charge and maul you as well. Your gun may not stop the charge. This is why game departments have set minimums. Shot placement is everything...usually. Caliber and energy are the back up plan!(again with proper placement)

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: IronBuck]
      #1887 - 05/03/03 01:04 PM

Stand in front of a full mounted lion starting to leap. Stand 6 feet away from it and look into or up to its eyes and you realise why the .308 will feel puny.

I think it is better to be over-gunned with something that bites back rather than under-gunned.

Many writers have said (I have no lion hunting experience) that a .375 H&H is an ideal lion calibre.

Added to this the PH I hunted with in Zim said he had had several lion charges in the tall grass of Tanzania and believed a .500 A-square was the ideal lion charge medicine as it generally will drop them no matter what (ie less than perfect shot placement) when "they come boiling out of the grass". (I like that term - "boiling out of the grass")


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Bigfive]
      #1889 - 05/03/03 02:59 PM

Whilst a .30 calibre is OK for hunting "spots" it's way too small for lion. A .375 with fast expanding ammo is ideal for them. As good 'ol Bobby Ruark wrote, "use enough gun"

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Bigfive
Sponsor


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: shakari]
      #1890 - 05/03/03 04:47 PM

Very nice replies,thank you!
I also reckon that you can shoot a lion with any caliber that you can shoot kudu with and fellow PH friend of mine here in South-Africa shot a lioness over a cattle carcass with a 30-30 lever and got away with it.He was on his catttle farm and saw the lioness killing the cow.He wasnt prepared for a lion shoot but at that stage he only had his 30-30 with him on the quad bike.But..........................Yes I was tought by a very old and experienced ph here in SA(Wilf Morgan) that nevermind what you hunt,rather go to the bush with to much gun than to little gun.Himself,Mr Morgan,nearly had a bad experiance with a lion about 10 years ago.The client shot the lion straight from the front while it was lying under some trees.He used a .375H&H.And the lion went down.When they got to the lion they could see the lion chest move as it was still breathing.Lucky with quick reactions they gave another shot.After all the action they noticed that the first head shot only knocked the lion out.It didnt even cut the skin.It passed just under the ear on the side of the head.
If this was to be a 308 or something in the same class there could've been fatal consecuenses

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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deadeye
.224 member


Reged: 06/03/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Idaho,,,,U.S.A.
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Bigfive]
      #1897 - 06/03/03 01:07 PM

I personally would'nt think a lion would be any harder to kill than a elk or moose.....which we take quite regular with .30 calibers....(or broadheads)!

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DEADEYE

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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: deadeye]
      #1898 - 06/03/03 04:17 PM

any big lion standing broadside with a 30 cal in his heart/ lungs is gonna die for sure but its what hes doing to you while hes dying is the problem.And if hes coming hard another one probably wouldnt stop him either unless its a direct brainer.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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Bigfive
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: gryphon]
      #1901 - 06/03/03 04:47 PM

Hi deadeye,
Yes it is true but remember moose can't bite and scratch as hard as a lion!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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deadeye
.224 member


Reged: 06/03/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Idaho,,,,U.S.A.
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Bigfive]
      #1908 - 07/03/03 04:54 PM

Yes, your right there! Over kill is preferred to underkill.

If their is one thing I have learned in 40 years of big game hunting it is when in rome......The .375 would be my choice for a lion hunt.

Do not underestimate a Bull moose, though, I have seen them attack a mack log truck and win.

--------------------
DEADEYE

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Bigfive
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: deadeye]
      #1909 - 07/03/03 05:53 PM

Deadeye,
You just made the biggest mistake of your life by telling me you have hunted big game for more than 40 years.I'm gonna bug you with questions now.I'll post some new messages.Do you mind sharing your experience with us????????


--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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Bigfive
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Bigfive]
      #1911 - 07/03/03 06:00 PM

Thanx for all the interesting replies and views on lions.
Check out the next animal on discussion!!!!!

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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deadeye
.224 member


Reged: 06/03/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Idaho,,,,U.S.A.
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Bigfive]
      #1913 - 07/03/03 06:11 PM

ohh I suppose i could relate a few stories to ya....might be a little tame compared to all the exotic hunters.....

But remind me to tell you guys bout the bear hunter that went with me that used nothing but a daisy bb gun and a camcorder

--------------------
DEADEYE

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Bigfive
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: deadeye]
      #1914 - 07/03/03 06:35 PM

Can't wait to hear it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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Mpofu
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 141
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Bigfive]
      #1918 - 07/03/03 11:55 PM

In Zimbabwe, I was told a 375 H&H Mag was the lowest calibre permissable for DG.
I had a one shot kill on a pretty big bodied Lion using a 375 H&H Mag, with a Kynoch soft.The shot was at 120 yards and was over a Zebra bait.
So from very limited personal experience, I would go for the 375 H&H Mag.
Having seen the Lion charge on the video 'In the jaws of Simba', I would personally go for a heavy double(450 upwards) for a similar situation.
M.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: deadeye]
      #1921 - 08/03/03 12:55 AM

Deadeye

Welcome to the forums.

You mentioned all the exotic hunts. Remember us Aussies and Africans a hunt for even black bear in North America is pretty exotic too.

I would fly half way across the world (and will too) oneday just to hunt a blackie plus hopefully a whitetail or mule deer. They would make a pretty pair I think.

Where in the USA (or Canada) are you from?

Why a "b b gun" ?

PS Tell you story in the competition - a bear - can count as well and maybe win a booklet.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Mpofu]
      #1922 - 08/03/03 01:04 AM

Mpofu

That is a great video "In the Jaws of Simba" isn't it. Not for the PH who gets mauled though.

I was told a story in 1994 of a wounded lion that charged a group of three hunters. I would re-count it properly but I have forgotten most of it. I think there were three hunters - a PH, an assistant PH and the client. They were approaching a grassy area abreast and the lion charged. One of them shot it and as the animal fell it hit a small bush which caused it to be able to re-bound and it mauled one of the three. It was basically dead from the shot but still managed to cause some grief.

That is why I think a .308 isn't adequate even though there is no doubt it can kill and you are 100% right about a .450 plus. I remember someone once writing once they are wounded the bigger the calibre the better - for any of the big five.

Now I am not going to let your lion hunt comment pass - any photos or details ?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: NitroX]
      #1934 - 08/03/03 07:09 AM

Many years ago i read about Harry Wolhuter a man that killed a big lion with his Green River,the link below gives a brief story on his amazing survival and i`m sure Harry wouldnt have worried about the choice of calibres at the time.
http://www.lowveld.com/rottcher/story_of_harry_wolhuter.htm

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Mpofu]
      #1955 - 09/03/03 11:31 PM

Mpofu

Received the photo of you and the lion.

Nice big male. Congratulations.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: deadeye]
      #1963 - 10/03/03 05:45 AM

You're spot on. Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

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deadeye
.224 member


Reged: 06/03/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Idaho,,,,U.S.A.
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: NitroX]
      #1968 - 10/03/03 06:40 AM

I live at about 7000 feet elevation on the Idaho/Montana continental divide! There is a 200 mile roadless wilderness adjacent to my little spread.

When your photo album is ready I will post a 100 pictures or so of the last (in the continental usa) great american wilderness if ya like. also log on to the river of no return wilderness site. (i'll have to find the addy).

The bb gun story is coming.

--------------------
DEADEYE

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deadeye
.224 member


Reged: 06/03/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Idaho,,,,U.S.A.
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: Bigfive]
      #1969 - 10/03/03 06:44 AM

Just thought of another story about the model, poodles and the bear...lmao That will probably be my entry in the competition... If I can quit laughing long enough to write it....

--------------------
DEADEYE

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
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Re: Lion Hunting [Re: NitroX]
      #1989 - 11/03/03 11:37 AM

OK Ladies and Gentlemen

Here is Mpofu's lion



Mpofu

That lion is huge, a nice body size.

Dantri - still want to use a .308?


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Bigfive
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: Lion Hunting [Re: NitroX]
      #1995 - 11/03/03 06:53 PM

NitroX,
I'll rather stick to my 460WBY Mag and at about 200meters thank you!Graet animal.The weight on this lion?????I'll say close to 400kg if not over.Average for a male lion is about 350kg.


--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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