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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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doubleriflejack
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Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter?
      #187622 - 09/08/11 05:02 AM

My Lancaster 12 ga. Colindian has the celebrated smooth oval bore rifling, with measured bores, both barrels, @ .736/.716, or .020" out of round, or comparable depth of rifling. In DGJ article by Ross Seyfried, he found his Colindian to have bores of .723/.709, or .014" out of round. Colindians use 750 grain elongated conical bullets; mine shows nitro proof marks with 28 grains Cordite/ 1 1/8 oz shot or 750 gr. bullet. Seyfried said in article, that he used "full paradox diameter, which is .735"--.736". Ratio of 1:15 alloy for bullet. Should I use bullet of paradox diameter, or somewhat smaller, considering size of my bores, .736/.716?

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rigbymauser
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #187629 - 09/08/11 06:36 AM

Just a little curious here..Where does the oval twist starts from?..like right from the chamber or further out?.
Which DGJ did RS made the artical regarding the Colindian S&B gun?.
Does the barrels ends with a choke at the muzzle?.

Edited by rigbymauser (09/08/11 06:46 AM)

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #187642 - 09/08/11 10:17 AM

Lancaster smooth oval bore rifling, in their Colindian, is same as in all their rifles; it starts where "normal" rifling normally starts, forward of chambers, thus is nothing like Paradox that has the rifling only 2 inches at muzzles. RS wrote article covering his Colindian in Vol. 20, Issue 4, Winter, 2009. Yes, I overlooked mentioning that the oval bore rifling tapers by .002", in both my and RS gun, toward muzzle, but I wouldn't call that a choke, yet maybe you would. It is intended for sealing better conical bullet along the bore, toward the muzzle, with little effect on bird shot.

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CommandCar
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #187699 - 10/08/11 04:24 AM

DRJ,

I was not aware that Ross listed the diameter of the projectile used in his DGJ article. I will take another look tonight.

Just a guess, but I personally would start with .736" or smaller and Sherman's Unique loads listed in his latest DGJ Paradox article. Most modern Fosbery moulds throw slugs @.740" so you have that diameter as a backup. Also a guess, but you may get higher velocity with the same loads in your Colindian. When My loads were tested, they produced higher velocity from the .727" test barrel (+100 fps). I think the undersize slug in the paradox bore slows things down a little???

If Unique does not work, I can help with Blue Dot loading info. My Evans (paradox) is a 28 grain gun and likes Blue Dot best.

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CommandCar
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: CommandCar]
      #187716 - 10/08/11 11:38 AM

Reread Ross's article. It does seem like he used .736" Fosbery slugs.

What is the chamber length of your Colindian?

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DarylS
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: CommandCar]
      #187758 - 11/08/11 03:55 AM

.013" LARGER than the 'groove diameter [.723"])' of his gun seems more than a bit excessive to me. I'm surprised the chamber allowed such a large projectile in the case.

I see no problem whatsoever of using a .736" bullet in any .736" barrel.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: CommandCar]
      #187759 - 11/08/11 04:31 AM

My Colindian has chambers 2 3/4" length. It was nitro reproofed in England; is stamped 28 gr. cordite/ 1 1/8 oz shot/750 gr. bullet.

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CommandCar
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: DarylS]
      #187763 - 11/08/11 05:03 AM

Quote:

.013" LARGER than the 'groove diameter [.723"])' of his gun seems more than a bit excessive to me. I'm surprised the chamber allowed such a large projectile in the case.

I see no problem whatsoever of using a .736" bullet in any .736" barrel.



Actually It is not too crazy if you think about what happens in a conventional Parodox barrel. Let's say the bore is .738" and you slug is .736. The slug travels down the bore and enters the choke 4" from the muzzle. The Fosbery slug passes thru the smooth portion of the choke and is reduced to .690", then engraved and spun in the ratchet rifling in the final 2".

In the Colindian, it seems, the massive reduction of slug size may happen at the "forcing cone".

DRJ,

Try the Fosbery slug you have, if you need a mould, I will loan you one. Use 2 3/4" cases. I expect your Colindian to regulate @ something between 1070 and 1170 fps. If you are using the Ross/Sherman Unique loads I immagine you will be safe. This is a trial and error business. So, once you determine your concoction is safe in your Colindian, you might as well start trying...

Good Luck, please keep us informed.

Edited by CommandCar (11/08/11 10:25 AM)

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: CommandCar]
      #187788 - 11/08/11 02:53 PM

I haven't seen ball 'slug up' to groove diameter in my bore rifles, no matter the rifling profile -- but I haven't shot or owned an 'invisible' like the CH, Lancaster, or Tolley Ubique.

I'd try a thou (or a few) under major diameter and work with the wad column.
Fiddle with lube.


I can't wait to see how it shoots when you get it running.






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: tinker]
      #187822 - 12/08/11 02:12 AM

For obturation to take place, the bullets must be very soft and black powder be used to 'slug' up the bullet very much. It happens easily in ctgs. like the .45 and .50 cal. Sharps - with paper patched pure or almost pure lead bullets.

If the bullet doesn't slug up immediately to seal it is generally gas cut and innaccuracy and severe lead fouling is usually the result.


CCar - this doesn't make sense to me. The bullet cannot be reduced to .690" before hitting the rifling as then it would be choke bore size and too small to engrave in the choke's lands which run to .738" groove depth FROM .690" bore size.

The bullet must be full bore size (.736" to .738") before hitting the rifling. I was not aware there was a smooth section of choke before the lands in a paradox - that part also doesn't make sense.

Quote:

"Let's say the bore is .738" and you slug is .736. The slug travels down the bore and enters the choke 4" from the muzzle. The Fosbery slug passes thru the smooth portion of the choke and is reduced to .690", then engraved and spun in the ratchet rifling in the final 2"."



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CommandCar
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: DarylS]
      #187838 - 12/08/11 09:41 AM

Daryl,

Thank you for pointing that out, I think I have it right, but am unsure and did not write the diameter down. I will borrow measuring tools and get you the diameter of the smooth portion of the choke on my Evans, which is the Webley & Scott late version of the paradox choke. Regardless of the diameter, there is a rather massive smooth choke that begins approximately 4" from the muzzle. The rifled portion starts 2" from the from the muzzle. I am attaching a section of text from Handloader #227 by Ross Seyfried concerning the dynamics of the Fosbery slug traveling down a Paradox barrel.

"A big, 700+ grain bullet goes
screaming down a barrel with a bit
of slack. It then encounters a forcing
cone, some 25 inches later,
when it is going over 1,000 fps.
In the space of about 3 inches, in a
sniff of a second, this bullet goes
from zero to a one-turn-in-36-inch
spin and is hammered down from
.736 to .690 inch – and goes right to
the target."

I want to cerosafe cast the choke on my barrel but am somewhat afraid I will never get the casting out...

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DarylS
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: CommandCar]
      #187873 - 13/08/11 01:50 AM

Much depends on the measurements/constrictions and where they are situated. It sounds as if everything should fall back to the breech.

Ross' rifled sections sounds to me to have a bore of .690"(bore of the rifled choke) and the groove diameter of .736". That's how I understand it - right or wrong. I'd like to know for sure, obviously.

The Paradox muzzles I've seen appear to have very deep rifling which would match my supposition on bore and groove diameters - lands of .023" height/depth. .736" - .690" = .046" divided by 2 = .023".

I can't see the point of having a smooth choke section ahead of the rifled section (which must be tighter yet). If the choke was .715" for instance and then .690" for the 'bore' of the rifled section, the depth of groove would be only .715-.690" = .025" divide by 2 = .0125" depth of rifling, which does not sound sufficient to spin a 1,000fps 700gr. bullet, but maybe it does.

The smooth choke section merely makes the bullet to reduce in overall diameter by drawing down in size which causes lengthening and lead flashing off the rear edge - before it hits a futher reducing in rifling, but only by the lands. A bullet collected from a 'trap' might be quite interesting to measure - for it's 'major' diameter. Is it the original bore size (.736"), or a smooth choke size -(whatever that is)? how 'deep' is the rifling at the muzzle. That should tell whether the bullet is drawn down before it hits the rifling or not.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CommandCar
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: DarylS]
      #187884 - 13/08/11 04:01 AM

Daryl,

I have both fired slugs and a slugged slug. My paradox choke is 7 groove, and I am not equipped to measure diameters of odd shapes. I will provide slugs to someone who can measure.

The sizing and shaping of the projectile is significant in that there is flashing and cupping of the base and on paper targets the holes are clearly 7-sided.

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DarylS
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: CommandCar]
      #187908 - 14/08/11 03:43 AM

Should be able to use calipers or mic and get the outside max. diameter. Measuring land height will, of course, not give a true, inner bore size - but will be fairly close, as would an inside expanding ball-gauge measurement of the gun's muzzle. Inside corner of one to the 'closest to opposite' outside corner. There must be a mathematical formula for decifering this from a single land height, using the major groove diameter produced by actual measure of a test slug.

A ball-gauge measure of the bore and outside measure of a slug were made would give both as accurately as necessary.

Actually, the major outside diameter of the slug will either be .736" or smaller.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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rigbymauser
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: DarylS]
      #187913 - 14/08/11 07:18 AM

Interesting reading here:LOL...However I am still a little confused..IF one has an ovalbored gun, if the principle that the ball shall fill out the intire diameter of the bore, or shall/must there be just a little space( two sides) where the ball do not touch the barrel walls?. The reason I ask is because my Ball & Shot gun has the oval bore, and factory ammo(H&H) just barely touch two sides of the barrel walls leaving two long gaps open the look like two slim crecent "moons" on the sides of the ball telling clearly the barrel is very oval. My guess is that the tightest dia is some .734" and the widest point is some.742" or more. Then later it chokes down to .734/722 before the muzzle. H&H factory ammo do not work, and I wondered if I should cast the balls a full .742" in soft lead so it leaves no gap in the barrels?.


Edited by rigbymauser (14/08/11 07:33 AM)

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CommandCar
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #188295 - 22/08/11 12:06 PM

RM,

Is your double a Lancaster? I do not see where you listed the maker...

I think what we have found out here is it seems Ross used really oversized Fosbery slugs in his Colindian. In the text, he mentions that he started small and soft and worked up.

I also think it is safe to assume he settled on 15:1 lead:tin because it produced better accuracy or less leading (or both).

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DarylS
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: CommandCar]
      #188327 - 23/08/11 02:52 AM

I recall that article by Ross and thought, OMG - that's big.

The biggie, here, is if the ctg. will chamber with the oversized ball or bullet. Was it chambered for a paper or brass ctg. Brass, of course, will allow much larger diameter bullets.

In the oval bore, I'd be trying round balls slugtly undersized and cloth patched, maybe - pure lead first - at slightly over 'bore size'. I know it sounds strange and not original, but I also know they work in a number of double and pump guns we've tried them in. They do not sound orthodox, but do have advantages perhaps not thought of. No leading, clean shooting with simple mink oil or neetsfoot oil lube, or melted beeswax with an oil for lube. I'd be concerned of the muzzles expanding with too much bullet diameter and mass exiting, depending on the muzzle thickness (weight), of course.

When round balls were made available (most called them Punkin balls) for any old shotgun they were kept way undersized so they wouldn't damage the muzzle of choked gun. That is why they were so inaccurate, of course. Modern Foster-type hollow based slugs, with 'vanes'/'rifling' on them had those 'soft' raised surfaces so the chokes wouldn't be damamged. Granted, modern full choked shotguns have less 'weight' in the muzzles than the old English guns. Perhaps the modern ones do not need the weight, due to stronger materials? I don't know the answer to that.

I know Ross was concerned, but kept trudging along in testing and came up with the answer for HIS gun- way ovesized bullets.

I would not boldly go where no one (we know) has gone before with MY gun. It would take time and careful loading to find what the gun wants - or it would, if it was mine to test.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CommandCar
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: DarylS]
      #188369 - 23/08/11 12:01 PM

Daryl,

The ball & shot, paradox, explora and other guns designed for single projectile and shot cartridges were chambered for the paper case. This generally came in two forms, the paper case and the paper-lined brass case. The vintage all brass cased ammunition used in these guns had an internal paper lining that reduced the internal dimensions to that of the paper case. The best way to think of the design is a full length - super high brass cartridge. I believe this was done to increase the durability of the cartridge, while still providing a normal chamber for shotshell ammunition.

Many confuse the vintage all brass paradox ammunition with the thin all brass cases used in the larger bored gauge rifles. I have seen paradox loading data for the Magtech brass - wrong choice...

The correct case our Ball & Shot guns is the current plastic or paper case. Ross and Sherman favor the Federal paper hull for the 12 ga. There are zero issues in chambering a Federal paper loaded with a seated .736 projectile (or larger) in a B&S. If anyone should experience a chambering issue, it is time to back up and figure out what is different before proceeding (ie. before pulling the trigger).

I personally use the Cheddite and Fiocchi plastic case (UEE) because that is what worked in my Evans. I did not spend much time with the Federal paper, but will revisit it when I continue working up new loads.

The question, as I believe you are bringing up, is - Does RM have a oval bore "bore rifle" or an oval bore "Ball & Shot gun". RM indicated a weight of 8.5 lbs, too heavy for a normal Paradox type and maybe a little light for a bore rifle. I am interested in the maker and date of completion. This may shed more light on how to approach the loading process.

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DarylS
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: CommandCar]
      #188396 - 24/08/11 01:58 AM

"The question, as I believe you are bringing up, is - Does RM have a oval bore "bore rifle" or an oval bore "Ball & Shot gun". RM indicated a weight of 8.5 lbs, too heavy for a normal Paradox type and maybe a little light for a bore rifle. I am interested in the maker and date of completion. This may shed more light on how to approach the loading process."

Considering 9 or 9 1/2 pounds was a normal weight for a 14 bore round ball muzzleloading DR of the 1860 period, 8 1/2 sounds light in comparrison, however there were light, moderate and heavy charges used in the round ball ctgs. of the 1880's through 1890's, something like 110gr.(4 drams), 150gr.(5 1/2 drams) and 191gr. (7 drams) in the shorter cases.

I do not know if there were smokeless equivalents for these loads.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (24/08/11 02:00 AM)

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CommandCar
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #189928 - 15/09/11 06:19 AM

DRJ,

Thinking about your barrel diameters here. Are your bores tapered? Did you slug the breech or muzzle?

Thanks.

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rigbymauser
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Re: Lancaster Colindian ball and shotgun bullet diamter? [Re: CommandCar]
      #189976 - 16/09/11 05:45 AM

Quote:

Daryl,


The question, as I believe you are bringing up, is - Does RM have a oval bore "bore rifle" or an oval bore "Ball & Shot gun". RM indicated a weight of 8.5 lbs, too heavy for a normal Paradox type and maybe a little light for a bore rifle. I am interested in the maker and date of completion. This may shed more light on how to approach the loading process.



Hi Guys.

Back from Africa...catching up here again:LOL.

MY B&S gun is made by Rigby. It has an oval bore that doesn`t spin BEFORE 2.5" the muzzle.
I have shot H&H new factory loads in the gun, but it throws them all over.
When I take a shell from H&H to cut out the ball in order to see how well the ball fit the barrels, the ball just barely touch barrelwalls, leaving two cresent gaps on each side until it reaches the muzzle, where the oval choke takes over.
The breech measures 59,4mm(2,34") across. The chamberwalls are 5.5mm or .22".
The gun was sold from London in 1903 from Rigbys, but were actually made by Osbourns according to the journals.
Its a heavy gun indeed which I can give a testimony of, as I have been using it for ducks and guneafowls in SA. Its almost like carrying a rifle.
I have also tried traditional Brenneke slugs in Africa testing at a target at 30 paces. The slugs didn`t group well to be of any use at all.
I have shot down on a lake to see how much the shot were spreading. This gun makes very wide patterns compaired to a normal shotgun.
Maybe oversized Fosberry balls are the way to make it work?.
What does a standard H&H paradox measures in width at the breech??.

Edited by rigbymauser (16/09/11 07:07 AM)

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