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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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Azone
.224 member

Reged: 17/07/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out?
#186507 - 25/07/11 04:37 PM

I'm curious to know whether anyone here has experienced a malfunction of a double rifle due to the "backing out" of an ejector (retainer?) screw.

During my recent trip to Africa, my double rifle suddenly refused to function (the problem was discovered on the range while sighting in). After the 4th round it wouldn't fully close nor could it be re-cocked. The rifle was put away for the duration of the hunt as the cause of the problem wasn't apparent.

While disappointing, it wasn't a huge problem as a back-up rifle was available.

The cause of the failure wasn't apparent at the time and the rifle was returned to the dealer after returning home. Shortly thereafter the problem was explained to me as being caused by the "ejector screw" having backing out a turn-and-a-half - something that apparently could only happen while the rifle was disassembled.

The recommended solution was to simply add loc-tite to the screw and to turn it back in. That was done and the rifle was returned to me.

"Before" and "after" pictures follow:

Before:

After:

Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated. How common is this sort of thing?

Edited by CptCurl (01/08/11 08:19 PM)

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AFRO408
.333 member

Reged: 21/01/09
Posts: 312
Loc: Arding NSW

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: Azone]
#186519 - 25/07/11 08:54 PM

That's unfortunate and could have been disastrous if there was no backup, but it's something to keep in the memory bank.
Did the dealer mangle the screw slot? and did you complain?

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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Alberta
.275 member

Reged: 03/12/07
Posts: 66
Loc: Canada

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: AFRO408]
#186523 - 25/07/11 11:14 PM

I am guesssing the rife was taken down for the trip and the screw backed out due to vibration? I have noticed that these same ejctor/extractor screws wich are supposed to be held captive when the shotgun or rifle is assembled are not always tight enough to prevent them from comming loose when the gun is apart. Had it happen to a shotgun and noticed the screw backing out on a double rifle as well.

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Azone
.224 member

Reged: 17/07/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: Alberta]
#186548 - 26/07/11 01:24 AM

AFRO408 - The photos were provided to me by the dealer as part of the explanation as to why the rifle stopped working. I must conclude that the screw slot was damaged while in the dealer's hands. Complain? Yes. My main concern was with function and that the rifle failed on the first morning of my DG hunt (thankfully, before we hit the field).

Alberta - The rifle was, in fact, not taken down during transport. I was using a Tuffpak and both rifles (the double and a back-up .375 H&H magazine rifle) were transported fully assembled, each in its own soft rifle case.

The idea that these screws are not supposed to unscrew on their own if the rifle is assembled was pointed out to me by the dealer. Apparently it isn't as "impossible" as popular wisdom might assume.

At any rate, this would appear to be one of those things that a person would do well to (1) know about and (2) check before heading out on any hunt. As this is my first double rifle, it was a bit of a surprise (and a learning experience).

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Alberta
.275 member

Reged: 03/12/07
Posts: 66
Loc: Canada

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: Azone]
#186553 - 26/07/11 01:48 AM

I am sorry this happened to you, I am guessing this is your Verney Carron 450-400 you posted over on CGN.

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aromakr
.375 member

Reged: 20/04/11
Posts: 849
Loc: Hamilton, Montana

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: Alberta]
#186564 - 26/07/11 03:01 AM

If your dealer screwed up that screw,I think I would look for another dealer. That screw was messed up by using a driver WAY too small for the screw. I suspect it was fooled with by other than a competent gunsmith, and a competent gunsmith would have fixed it before returning it too you.
Bob

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: aromakr]
#186566 - 26/07/11 03:13 AM

I agree about the screw - I'm terrible with screws, myself - but that doesn't allow the maker or distributor that freedom.

About the screw backing out. Since the screw could still be 'out' with the gun assembled, then it could unscrew at any time. I would think when it is together, there would be no pressure on the screw, and that's the time it would back out - from the vibration of firing, not from the vibration of transport(although that could cetainly happen with an improperly tightened screw).

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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doubleriflejack
.333 member

Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: Azone]
#186572 - 26/07/11 03:38 AM

I have seen a lot of various screws/bolts off all sizes vibrate loose over time, especially vibration from a vehicle over rough roads, so this really doesn't surprise me. Blue lock tight is the answer!

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Azone
.224 member

Reged: 17/07/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: Alberta]
#186580 - 26/07/11 07:53 AM

Alberta: It's the same one.

Other than that it's a handsome rifle. It's just a bit of a rude surprise to have your brand new double stop working on the range in Africa when you're otherwise geared up to go hunting.

c'est la vie...

P.S. I'm definitely not pleased about the mutilated screw. I understood that the rifle would be sent out to a gunsmith to determine the cause of the failure. I would have to agree that the dealer's decision to tighten the screw himself was not the right approach. A drop of loctite was added by the dealer before the piece was returned to me.

Edited by Azone (26/07/11 08:13 AM)

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aromakr
.375 member

Reged: 20/04/11
Posts: 849
Loc: Hamilton, Montana

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: Azone]
#186588 - 26/07/11 10:30 AM

Azone:
that screw head is and easy fix. You will need a small piece of steel with a threaded hole to match the screw and a very small ball peen hammer with a polished face. Screw the screw in to the hole and very lightly tap on the screw head where the metal is lifted until flush, then a thin needle file to lightly clean up the slot and your done, done properly you will never notice it.
Bob

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: aromakr]
#186592 - 26/07/11 11:58 AM

Quote:

Azone:
that screw head is and easy fix. You will need a small piece of steel with a threaded hole to match the screw and a very small ball peen hammer with a polished face. Screw the screw in to the hole and very lightly tap on the screw head where the metal is lifted until flush, then a thin needle file to lightly clean up the slot and your done, done properly you will never notice it.
Bob

aromakr is right. That screwhead has only suffered minor damage, and could easily be repaired using the method he describes.

The damage to the screw head is not much to worry about compared to the fact that the gun was put completely out of action due to the screw working loose!

This screw is what limits the extractor body rearward travel.
In the case of an ejector gun, this screw, or more correctly called a "pin", gets smacked by the extractor every time the ejectors are released as the gun is broken after firing. If the screw/pin wasn't there, the extractor bodies would go flying out of the barrels along with the fired cases.

The screw/pin can sometimes work loose, as it is getting pounded every time the ejectors are fired.
The design of the system, and the length and fit of the screw to the barrels can have an effect on how well this screw stays put.

If that gun was mine, I'd be using a VERY LOW STRENGTH loctite on the screw to see if that would prevent the screw from coming loose.

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Azone
.224 member

Reged: 17/07/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: 4seventy]
#186604 - 26/07/11 04:20 PM

Thanks, 4seventy and aromkr. Your comments about the operation and significance of the "pin" are very much appreciated. I literally had no idea of its existence (and less so about how it functioned). If there was a good case to be made for including an owner's manual with a new rifle, this would be it.

As far as the screw damage, I'd agree that it isn't significant and is certainly repairable. The thing is, of course, that the screw should not have been damaged in the first place.

As for the type of loctite that was used, I will have to send an enquiry to the dealer. There will be plenty of opportunities to test-fire the rifle over the next two years (before our next DG hunt...

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carpediem4570
.300 member

Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: Azone]
#186641 - 27/07/11 06:40 AM

Hello Azone:

Glad to see you here at Nitro Express.com.

Perhaps you could post some pics of the d.r. so that we may see what a VC looks like.

Were you at any time using hand loads?

Regards,

carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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Azone
.224 member

Reged: 17/07/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: carpediem4570]
#186655 - 27/07/11 10:51 AM

Here are two photos that I have handy. - Both are from the manufacturer.

As for handloads, I spent some time developing loads using Jameson as well as Hornady brass and 400 grain Woodleigh SP's and FMJ bullets as well as 400 grain Hornady DGX and DGS bullets. Powders used included Reloder 15 (with filler) as well as H4831SC. I figure that I put between 120 - 140 rounds through it before the safari.

The rifle was regulated for Hornady Factory SP's and it worked well with that ammo. Most of my handloads tended to shoot a bit (~3-4") high (with a 6-o'clock hold) at 50 yds. The barrels appeared to cross over at 50 yards but held within a 6-8" pie plate at 100 yards.

Edited by CptCurl (01/08/11 08:20 PM)

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carpediem4570
.300 member

Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: Azone]
#186664 - 27/07/11 03:27 PM

Beautiful rifle.

It looks like it was one of those, crap happens, things. I am sure it will be good-to-go for your next trip to Zim.

I was looking at the pic of your rifle and I bet that rifle would look good with a red dot sight on it.

I will drop by and tell you how mine worked out. I did some load development at 50 metres on the weekend. Talk about fast target acquisition.

Regards,

Carpediem

Edited by carpediem4570 (27/07/11 03:33 PM)

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Azone
.224 member

Reged: 17/07/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: carpediem4570]
#186665 - 27/07/11 04:09 PM

Yeah, it was a combination of "sh*t happens" combined with a healthy dose of "someone up there must be watching over me..." In the end, the result was a whole bunch of "live and learn".

This rifle is, without a doubt, a very well-finished, quick-handling firearm. A good friend recently bought himself a Merkel in the same chambering. I would have to say that the difference is pretty apparent, with the VC being the better-finished rifle. (Mind you, his rifle goes "bang" when he wants it to...) I can only hope that, with the judicious use of loctite, this piece should go back to serving as a fun-to-shoot double rifle.

If there is one thing that this trip taught me it's to, in our outfitter's words, "keep an open mind and a good attitude". That was really the key to being able to pick up the back-up rifle and go have fun hunting.

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Azone
.224 member

Reged: 17/07/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: carpediem4570]
#186667 - 27/07/11 04:14 PM

Well done! (Glad to hear your project worked out. - You may have a deer rifle for your wife yet...)

Give me a shout a day before you stop by and I'll bring the VC to the shop.

All the best,

Azone

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: Azone]
#186673 - 27/07/11 08:34 PM

This seems like the perfect situation for a locking screw, like the ones found on military Mausers or on my Browning Auto-5 and Beretta SO-2 sidelock shotgun. Such a screw would obivate the need for Loctite and for a screw which fits so tight that it is sulject to mutilation every time it is removed for routine cleaning.

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nopride2
.300 member

Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: AFRO408]
#187030 - 01/08/11 01:09 PM

The screw head is dinged in the before photo.

Dave

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Ejector (retainer?) screw backing out? [Re: DarylS]
#187066 - 02/08/11 02:28 AM

Quote:

I agree about the screw - I'm terrible with screws, myself - but that doesn't allow the maker or distributor that freedom.

About the screw backing out. Since the screw could still be 'out' with the gun assembled, then it could unscrew at any time. I would think when it is together, there would be no pressure on the screw, and that's the time it would back out - from the vibration of firing, not from the vibration of transport(although that could cetainly happen with an improperly tightened screw).

Absolutely! It is evident that the screw and surrounding surface does not contact the opposing surface in the action, so has room to back out from fireing viberation!

There are two fixes for this!

#1 is more involved but is more the profional fix! Installing a very small blocking screw that is in place after the main screw is tight much like the ones in most disk-set stricker bushings. This fix more closely matches the quality of this rifle.

#2 Is a small dab of soft LOCK-TITE on the threads just under the head of the screw in the first couple of threads under the head.

If you have a top notch smith in your area I would go for fix #1

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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