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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
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Loc: Arding NSW
Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8"
      #186313 - 22/07/11 05:14 PM

I seem to have struck it lucky with on of my first loads using paper patches.
Load is 35g ADI 2206 behind a wool wad x 430g hollow base PP bullet.
The mould is an RCBS .40-400 PP nose pour.
I wrapped the bullets with lined note paper .003" thick applied wet and later lubed with Lee sizing lube.
from left 435g .40-400 upright and lying down, 405g .40-400 flat base home made mould, RCBS .40-300 CSA.

Loaded round with paper patch.

I was really pleased to see this through the spotting scope.
The odd high one was one that I forgot to place a wool wad in and it went click/bang.
Point of aim is at 6 o'clock of the black.


The plain base bullet didn't do any where so good, about 2"
Here are a couple of pieces of the patch material.

The paper wasn't cut to ribbons at all.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (26/07/11 08:37 PM)

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Ben
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: AFRO408]
      #186315 - 22/07/11 05:39 PM

Tony, can you show us a picture of the rifle? I'm curious about a .450/.400 2 3/8". Nice shooting, too.

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AFRO408
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: Ben]
      #186317 - 22/07/11 07:00 PM

Hi Ben, it's in this thread.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=163459&an=0&page=0#Post163459

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: AFRO408]
      #186319 - 22/07/11 08:15 PM

Tony, That's great success.

Can you tell me the diameter you get from your RCBS mould? And the mould number? I may want to try that bullet in my .450/.400 3.25" Farquharson. It looks great.

What alloy are you using?

How did your bore look after shooting? Any lead at all?

Thanks,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ben
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: CptCurl]
      #186320 - 22/07/11 08:20 PM

Cheers, Tony. Is the rifle completed? I'm looking forward to a picture in its entirety.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: CptCurl]
      #186332 - 23/07/11 01:23 AM

Quote:

Tony, That's great success.

What alloy are you using?

How did your bore look after shooting? Any lead at all?

Thanks,
Curl



Those are my immediate questions as well. If the bullet is so hard it cannot slug up a bit, or the patched diameter is a bit on the small side, the patching may not be cut by the rifling. Those are my findings with my Sharps and Rolling Block.

Those are promisingly good initial results.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AFRO408
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: DarylS]
      #186516 - 25/07/11 08:30 PM

Cap'n Curl & Daryl,

The die came from Huntingtons here is a link to the page.
http://www.huntingtons.com/bulletmoulds.html

Alloy is 10lb of wheel weights + 2oz of tin approximately. I seem to get better finish on the bullets with a little extra tin.
I don't have a hardness tester, but I can still mark the bullets easily with my fingernail and when retrieved from the dirt, they are distorted but mostly intact.

After firing them I had a look at the muzzle and the rifling was just uniformly grey with powder residue and I found one tiny little speck of lead on the patch when I cleaned the bore.

Groove diameter of the barrel is .410" and the patched diameter of the bullet is about .414".
Un-patched diameter of the bullet is .406" and I thought that they were going to be too big, but obviously not.

I just took some pictures of the recovered bullets and they show nice deep rifling marks, so they must obturate.
The smaller ones are from my .310 Cadet.




I also made myself a nice brass pattern for cutting the patches. I was cutting a dozen at a time here.



Ben, the rifle is not completed yet, but I hope to get started on the stock later in the year. I wanted to make sure that the takedown system didn't need any modifications as well.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (26/07/11 08:38 PM)

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: AFRO408]
      #186555 - 26/07/11 02:09 AM

Nice pattern - doesn't take long to get a LOT of patches cut. Some guys use office supply sheet paper shears. Faster yet with the larger models.

Found this picture in my camera - couldn't remember if I'd posted it or not as I remember I was going to.

This is my bullet patching block & patch pattern - .45 or .50 cal. I think.

The block-tray, works for any sized bullet. The 1/8" wide groove, with the patch under the bullet, allows you to get a good grip as you push down and roll the bullet up out of the groove. It makes patching much easier to get a nice tight fit of patch to bullet. Running black lines gives reference to align bullets the same each time.
The bottom of the block has a couple 1" wide stips of maple screwed or glued to it, for clamping in a vise or supporting on the table, off the surface. This also helps with rolling on the patches.

310gr. .375 for illustration purposes only. The bullets were given to me, I've no idea if they are commercial or not, but appear to be - all well cast and lubed with Rooster Red.





--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (26/07/11 08:39 PM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: DarylS]
      #186615 - 26/07/11 08:47 PM

It certainly looks like you are on the road to success.



I was looking at this photo and have a suggestion. It looks like your patch does not extend all the way to the bullet ojive. It should cover all the cylindrical shaft of the bullet and extend just very slightly onto the ojive. You don't want any lead in contact with the bore or rifling. All the lead slides down the barrel on a greased patch. Your bullet seating depth should be such that the patched bullet is snug against the leade, but without difficulty in closing the action.

I may be wrong in my view of this photo, but you might want to check on this.

The RCBS bullet really looks fine. I was thinking it would do well with my .450/.400 3.25" Farquharson, but the diameter at .406" is too large. I would have to size it down, adding another step to the process.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylSModerator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: CptCurl]
      #186634 - 27/07/11 01:00 AM

I hadn't looked closely as to the height of the patch - Curls' right, of course. The patch should come over the 'corner' of the ogive. Another reason for that, is to prevent the start of the rifling throat from pushing it back on the bullet, exposing the bare shank to the rifling, which will destroy accuracy.

That's quite a slow tapered bullet - it's difficul to see where the ogive starts.

There is no velocity limit for a properly alloyed paper patched bullet. I know this isn't important for this round - just a note for those wondering about that.

The Lee sizing wax is a good idea for patch lube.

The plain based bullet should give as good accuracy. It appears you are using Lee Liqid Alox. I suggest SPG, Lyman's BP Gold or 60:40 of beeswax/Vasline for lube, instead.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: CptCurl]
      #186648 - 27/07/11 08:37 AM

Thanks Curl,

I did experiment with the patch length and I have it set so I can chamber the round without too much force.
Having read a lot about PP and from past experience with a .303, I've got a fair idea of what's needed, but I'm always open to suggestion :-) That round that I photographed may not be representative, it may be one of the first pressure test rounds that I fired into my bullet trap in the workshop.

Daryl,
When I first cast the 40-300-CSA bullets, I used my old standby of 50:50 Beeswax:Superfry and got reasonable results, but got better grouping with Lee liquid Alox. The reference to poor grouping with the FB bullet was from my home made moulded 405g PP bullet. I'll not bother with any more of them in this rifle, but I have opened the mould out to .408" and I want to try them paper patched in a .416 Rigby rifle.

As you may have gathered, I like making my own shooting equipment and ingredients and I think that I'm going to have a very entertaining retirement, when the time comes.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: AFRO408]
      #186656 - 27/07/11 11:03 AM

Never a dull moment - you'll be put out it didn't happen sooner - maybe?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
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Loc: Arding NSW
Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: DarylS]
      #186666 - 27/07/11 04:12 PM

Yeah, no dull moments for me mate.

I had a close look at the RCBS 40-400 PP bullets and there is a slight reduction in diameter about half way up from the base. It's only .002" or so and I don't think that it's accidental.
My patches are 1" long and the fold over is .200", so they are covering .800" of the bullet and at the top of the patch, the bullet measures .399. Perfect for a 40 cal bore. No wonder that it shoots so well in my rifle.
When tried in the muzzle, it is just a clearance fit.


I found a suitable piece of rubber for rolling them on.


Here are a couple of pix of my home made PP mould. Made from a piece of .224 barrel.


The ejection pin also forms the meplat on the bullet nose.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (28/07/11 11:27 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: AFRO408]
      #186676 - 27/07/11 09:37 PM

That bullet mould is a new concept!

It's hard to argue with success, but isn't a 400 grain bullet way over on the heavy side for the 2 3/8" cartridge? I was thinking the original loads for that round maxed out at about 250 grains?

Your 400 grain bullets would be a good choice for my 3 1/4" rifles. The .406 diameter is too large for paper in my .408 grooved Farquharson. I'd like to find a mould that spits out .400" bullets at 400 grains.

You are obviously doing great. Keep us informed.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylSModerator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: CptCurl]
      #186691 - 28/07/11 03:02 AM

Cool mould and good idea for the ejector pin - the spring would soon lose it's spring if on one of my moulds - but excellent idea.

Afro - is your bullet tapered, front to back or does it have a parallel side? It is a good looking bullet.

Since this is for the Martini - (I think) the bullet weight would be fine. Kinda like me shooting 405gr. to 525gr. in my .45/60 Sharps when that particular Winchester round originally used 250gr. or lighter bullets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
Posts: 312
Loc: Arding NSW
Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: CptCurl]
      #186708 - 28/07/11 08:21 AM

Quote:

That bullet mould is a new concept!

It's hard to argue with success, but isn't a 400 grain bullet way over on the heavy side for the 2 3/8" cartridge? I was thinking the original loads for that round maxed out at about 250 grains?

Your 400 grain bullets would be a good choice for my 3 1/4" rifles. The .406 diameter is too large for paper in my .408 grooved Farquharson. I'd like to find a mould that spits out .400" bullets at 400 grains.

You are obviously doing great. Keep us informed.

Curl



Hi Cap'n,
The original BP loads for this cartridge were up to 275g Lead.
The Nitro for Black loads went up to 300g Jacketed.
The full Nitro load fired a 400g Jacketed with 40g Cordite.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
Posts: 312
Loc: Arding NSW
Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: DarylS]
      #186709 - 28/07/11 08:30 AM

Quote:

Cool mould and good idea for the ejector pin - the spring would soon lose it's spring if on one of my moulds - but excellent idea.

Afro - is your bullet tapered, front to back or does it have a parallel side? It is a good looking bullet.

Since this is for the Martini - (I think) the bullet weight would be fine. Kinda like me shooting 405gr. to 525gr. in my .45/60 Sharps when that particular Winchester round originally used 250gr. or lighter bullets.



Hi Daryl, thanks.
My bullet does have a barely discernible taper and sometimes falls from the mould without me having tapped the ejector.
It is for the Martini and I think that it would have good penetration on game.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: AFRO408]
      #186715 - 28/07/11 09:36 AM

If pushing them in the 1,400fps through 1,800fps range, I'd be trying a 50/50 WW/pure lead mix. Penetration coupled with great expansion would be good.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AFRO408
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: DarylS]
      #186828 - 29/07/11 05:51 PM

Thanks for that info Daryl.

As I stated in the previous post, the flat base 405g PP bullets didn't shoot all that well, so I thought I'd make some improvements and ended up making a whole new mould and go from base pour to nose pour as well.
This is the result.



The mould body is made from a piece of .243 Stainless barrel shank.
It fills nicely from a bottom pour furnace, with the sprue plate held against the nipple and the bullet falls out of the mould with out any difficulty.
I'm completely satisfied with the resulting bullet. It has a perfectly flat base that is perpendicular to the central axis.
I made it to cast at .410" so they can be tested in a .416 Rigby, as I'm really happy with the RCBS 40-400 bullet for my 450-400 and don't need another PP bullet for it.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (30/07/11 09:31 PM)

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: AFRO408]
      #186843 - 30/07/11 01:07 AM

I use MS Moly - the bullet coating spray, for coating my moulds. Stops lead from sticking and helps bullets drop out. Rapine Mould Prep is a quick drying, liquid graphite coating that does the same thing.

The moly spray sold by eithr Birchwood Casey's or Hoppe's is also good. One of these is not suitable as it wipes off easily - I just can't remember which one of the 2, is the bad one. I think it's the Hoppe's - but I'm not sure.

The MS Moly and Rapine solutions both work amazingly well.

Spraying the patched bullets with MS Moly might make for an interesting experiment as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AFRO408
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: DarylS]
      #186882 - 30/07/11 01:47 PM

Daryl,
You can see, in the photo, the Superfine Moly that I spread onto the mould ends. It works so well, in preventing galling, that I wouldn't use anything else.
I usually spray the whole mould with WD 40, for storage and when heated up again, it seems to work like when you have to break in a cast iron frypan, so that it will be non stick.

I've also tumbled some hard cast GC .30 cal bullets, in Moly and they shot well without leading the bore.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
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Loc: Arding NSW
Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: AFRO408]
      #200484 - 24/01/12 05:48 PM

I have just been wrapping a few bullets for a friend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTZVln4e1qM

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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tophet1
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: AFRO408]
      #200497 - 24/01/12 06:47 PM

I've fired some of these in my .416 Rigby and initial tests show good accuracy with full power loads.

I have yet to extractus digitum and do a full report.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: tophet1]
      #200529 - 25/01/12 05:03 AM

Afro408 - that hard rubber pad is doing an amazing job of the patching. It's very texture produces enough flex and 'grip' to do what that narrow groove does on my paper patching board. The rubber is quicker and seems to do a perfect job. TKS for showing us the video.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AFRO408
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Re: Paper Patch loads in my 450-400 2 3/8" [Re: DarylS]
      #200542 - 25/01/12 08:06 AM

Thanks Daryl, you are welcome mate.

The rubber comes from a broken dam kind of thing, that the Forestry Dept used on Mt Pickapene's steep tracks, to divert the water. They used it instead of having a machine make Wooboys, or angled humps across the track. When you drove over it, it just flexed over and sprung up again. A Ranger, on his own, could place them easily with just a hammer and long nails, driven through the piece of timber they were attached to.
I collected some broken pieces, from there, when I was working in the Fire spotting tower on the top of the mountain. Lovely views, but scary when a strong 100kph wind was blowing.

I've used the rubber to make non-slip butt pads as well.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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