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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: fuhrmann]
      #187903 - 14/08/11 02:36 AM

Are any American rifles offered in Europe in 8x57?

Ruger, Remington, Savage?

Ruger chambered some 7x64's a while back and I'm wondering...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #187904 - 14/08/11 03:11 AM

Reminton made some M700s in 8x57, some years back.

note: SAAMI specs

8x57JS - 35,000PSI - 241.317 MPa

note: CIP specs

8x57JS - 57,000PSI - 393.001 MPa

whatever MPa is?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #189216 - 04/09/11 10:30 PM

MPa = megapascal

1 MPa = 10 bar

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458Shooter
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Reged: 14/09/09
Posts: 47
Loc: Canada
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #190129 - 18/09/11 10:13 AM

Quote:

Just use a 30-06 with 220 grainers ! easier ? best, Mike




Cuz everyone and their dog has a 30-06, I like something different. I prefer the 7x57 over the
7mm-08 for the same reason. Not to say those cartridges have any flies on them, I like the older stuff because of the history behind them.

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 458Shooter]
      #348355 - 23/12/20 08:47 AM

Quote:

The 8x57 Mauser and the 358 Winchester have been forgotten in the hunting camps, I guess the times have changed and shooters want the latest laser with the biggest scope.
The original military condition Brno 8x57 Mauser I picked up recently shoots 220 grain bullets right around 2400 fps. The 358 Winchester shoots the 225 grain Barnes X bullets at just over 2500 fps, I can't believe these cartridges have been overlooked for so long.
I will continue to hunt and target shoot with the 8x57, although most of the time people will look at my Mauser at the gun range and wonder what planet it fell to earth from.
I baffle them further when I show them the 30-06 brass I used to make 8x57 Mauser.



Despite everything , the cartridge 8x57IS has had a certain come-back in recent years in Germany. This is partly due to the vogue of the short barrels and the silencers.

The cartridge 308 Winchester is but still at the forefront.

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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: CommandCar]
      #348371 - 23/12/20 02:09 PM

Quote:

MPa = megapascal

1 MPa = 10 bar



1 bar = 14.5038 psi

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: grandveneur]
      #348372 - 23/12/20 02:13 PM

CommandCar:
MPa = megapascal

1 MPa = 10 bar



1 bar = 14.5038 psi

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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crshelton
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Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: grandveneur]
      #348374 - 23/12/20 02:19 PM

Who cares how other shooters at the range look at your rifle or ammo?

My old reliable is my M70 .308, but my fun guns include doubles in .405 WCF and 45-70, an 1886 45-90, 1895 in .405 WCF , 1892 in .357 Mag, etc.
The doubles are very accurate at 50 yards and folks are often puzzled by the 1886 and 1895, both of which have African DG credentials.

After all, we shoot for the fun of it , right?

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: crshelton]
      #348376 - 23/12/20 02:59 PM

Yes we do, but for me, not as much as I used to shoot. Hmmmmm.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Woldan
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Reged: 17/03/16
Posts: 32
Loc: Austria
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 458Shooter]
      #348390 - 24/12/20 12:13 AM

The probably most exotic cartridge I reload and shoot is the 7.5x55 Swiss, a very neat round, it looks like the love child of a .30-06 and a .308, its the perfect in-between. Fortunately .308 bullets can be used with no overpressure and very good accuracy from my straight pull bolt action K11. It loves flat base bullets.

Then I also have the .44-40, which is such a classic. Such a gentle and extremely accurate round, 200 grains at 1380 fps with nearly no recoil. I'm sure if my Uberti Lever action was scoped it would shoot MOA with it. At 50yds with 200 grain lead round nose it shoots 5 rounds all touching and at 100 it still is less than 3 inches with buckhorn sights!

The most exotic I ever had was the 7,65x53 argentine in an 1893 Argentine Mauser. It was like a 7,62x51 that uses .311 bullets instead .308. I remember I used .308 load data for my first reloads.
Sweet shooter, but cases and dies were hard to find

Edited by Woldan (24/12/20 12:16 AM)

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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
Posts: 89
Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Woldan]
      #348426 - 24/12/20 04:12 PM

While we are on the 8x57 round and the rifles that are still available... thought you would appreciate this one!
[image][/image]
[image][/image]
[image][/image]

Just manage to buy it at a decent price in very good condition.
It is a Brno model 21, with a spoon bolt in 8x57S.
As I also have a 7x57 and a 8x60S, was thinking that the 8x57 would fit in nice in the middle of the other 2 classic cartridges!

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
Posts: 89
Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #348427 - 24/12/20 04:27 PM

On the subject of forgotten cartridges...
Almost all of the original Mannlicher cartridges is having a re-birth. 6.5x54MS, 8x56MS, 9x56MS and the 9,5x57MS. I use all of them to hunt anything from springbuck to Eland.
Then don't forget the .22 Hornet! the perfect round to teach the young to shoot, and I'm using mine to collect the tiny 10! Deadly up to 150m and almost no carcass damage on the small critters.
Then my personal favourite... the 300H&H
seems that none of the main brand rifle makers make them any more! Manage to pick up a Voere in 300H&H as well as and old Musgrave single shot target rifle. Both deadly and IMHO better than the newer 300 magnums! Nothing feeds as smooth as a 300H&H cartridge, and there is just that nostalgic look and feel about the cartridge.

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #348428 - 24/12/20 06:52 PM

Congratulations on your good taste, VC; yes, the most desirable Brno Model 21 in 8x57S would certainly fit well on your rack, along with her 7x57 and 8x60S cousins!
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Louis]
      #348430 - 25/12/20 12:42 AM

Actually, .22 Hornet is quite popular caliber in scandinavia. Itīs very nice when shooting birds for short ranges. Barking bird dog in a good company when hunting that way.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Igorrock]
      #348439 - 25/12/20 04:26 AM

.22 Hornet in a Ruger #1, older Ruger #3, Thompson Centre Contenders and Encores, Ruger M7722 Hornet, CZ model 527, or the little Anschutz bold action all made modern .22 Rifles.
By modern I am referring to the use of Remington brass and 40 through 50gr. bullets with Lil'Gun powder.
No longer is this a 150 to 200 yard ctgs for vermin. My CZ's ran under 1/2" sat 100 meters and put 40gr. bullets out at just over 3,300fps. My longest gopher kill with it was 454yards using the Nosler 40gr. Ballistic Tip.
Euro brass is too small in capacity to utilize this powder to it's best performance as RP brass holds almost a full gr. more than WW brass and WW is almost 1/2gr. capacity over the Euro stuff like RWS. In a 10gr. capacity ctg. 1 1/2gr. over RWS is a lot. It's also 100fps faster than WW brass.
So - the hornet comes of age depending on what rifle you are shooting it in.
WW brass uses up to 13.5gr. Lil'Gun with 40gr. bullets and R-P brass holds up to 14.4gr.
Crimped with the Lee Factory Crimping Tool, SD's are lower than 20fps. Without the crimp,performance suffers with huge shot to shot variations in speed. This is due to the small weak case.
I have put over 10,000 of these loads through my 2 CZ Hornets, my buddies Contender and another friend's Ruger M7722Hornet, so I know the loads are safe in these modern rifles. The older ones, probably not, even though Hodgdon lists low pressures for these loads. They also list lower speeds than I obtained in all 4 of these rifles.
With those loads in a modern rifle, the old Hornet pretty much matches the .221 Fireball from a rifle.
LG powder is quite incredible in the smaller case - high vel. low pressure.
With it, I never lost a single case to primer pocket expansion, yet that 'problem' is normal in this case with standard Hornet powders of old.
So - mild or wild, the Hornet is still a king.
All the guys with them on CZ's rave about the accuracy. Both of mine were the Euro "Lux" model.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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sbs470
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Reged: 15/04/04
Posts: 378
Loc: Sheffield Tasmania
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #348447 - 25/12/20 08:30 AM

I have just rad this thread from the start and I haven't seen 6.5 x57 mauser .This is a Mauser proprietary cartridge which has been pretty much forgotten. The other hot shot 6.5s have overtaken it but a worthy cartridge.
I also have an 8 x60s
sold the 7x57 brno 600 but I'm still searching for a 275 Rigby and a 300 super
I dont own a 30-06 or a 308
I do have a 318 WR

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4199
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #348448 - 25/12/20 08:33 AM

You would have to say most of us here would have 'oddball' cartridges, just to get dies & components is a wait, luckily it is still achievable due to Bertram Brass & Woodleigh projectiles!
Also CBE moulds here in Oz are great to get us casting as well.
As to these cartridges for me, basically a combination of either rifles not chambered now-a-days &/or low number overall produced compared to conventional calibers.

.32-20
.308 Norma Mag
9.3x64mm
.404 Jeffery
.500 Nitro 3"
.577-450 Martini Henry

These might be almost forgotten to the 'general public', but not here though!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 93x64mm]
      #348454 - 25/12/20 11:17 AM

I'm a bit short on small calibres, these days & have no Nitro or BP Express rifles, unfortunately.
Other than a bunch of rimfires, I have:

3 - 6.5x55's

1 - 8.15x47R
1 - .313 Express oh yeah - I do have a "nitro" burning express - lol - on a #4 Enfield

2 - 9.x62's
1 - .375/06 IMP

1 - .45 1.9"

1 - .50/95
bunch shotguns, muzzleloading rifles, shotgun and handgun and air rifles, springers and PCP & PCP handguns

so - no new prohibs - yet.

I guess the 9.3x62's re not rare or forgotten.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Slowflyer
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Reged: 22/03/12
Posts: 27
Loc: ACT, Australia
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #348461 - 25/12/20 03:19 PM

I like the unusual. In my collection there are:
10.75x68
375Flanged Nitro Express 2 1/2;
8x57 built by Husqvarna on a civilian variation of the M38 action;
6.5x ???? (Should be 53R but someone has reamed the chamber longer but with more taper);
6.5x57R;
5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum - getting ammunition for this in Australia is next to impossible!!!

Not a 308W nor a 243W to be seen. Not that there is anything wrong with them, in fact they are wonderful cartridges but .....

Merry Christmas,
MJG

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Slowflyer]
      #348463 - 25/12/20 04:39 PM

I own and use several rifles chambered in what you might call "less then mainstream" cartridges.
Some are probably more popular in Europe and maybe Oz, but here they are a bit uncommon.

From small to large I have;
1 222 Remington
1 257 Roberts
1 6.5X54 M/S
2 300 Savages
1 303 British
1 300H&H
1 8X57
1 35 Remington
1 358 Winchester
1 9X57
2 9.3X57s
1 9.3X74R
1 404 Jeffery

I also own several rifles in popular cartridges too. So I am not bent on one side or the other.
I have:
223s
25-06
6.8SPCs
270s
30-30
308s
30-06s
7.62X39
9.3X62
375H&H

I like them all.

Edited by szihn (25/12/20 04:41 PM)

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Vintage_Canvas
.275 member


Reged: 18/02/20
Posts: 89
Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Louis]
      #348466 - 25/12/20 06:11 PM

Quote:

Congratulations on your good taste, VC; yes, the most desirable Brno Model 21 in 8x57S would certainly fit well on your rack, along with her 7x57 and 8x60S cousins!
Louis


Thank you Louis! yes the BRNO model 21 are a great rifle. They dont make them like that anymore!
My 7x57 and 8x60S is actually Mannlicher S rifles. but the Brno fits in with them, as all of them have the spoon bolt handle.

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
Posts: 89
Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #348467 - 25/12/20 06:19 PM

Quote:

.22 Hornet in a Ruger #1, older Ruger #3, Thompson Centre Contenders and Encores, Ruger M7722 Hornet, CZ model 527, or the little Anschutz bold action all made modern .22 Rifles.
By modern I am referring to the use of Remington brass and 40 through 50gr. bullets with Lil'Gun powder.
No longer is this a 150 to 200 yard ctgs for vermin. My CZ's ran under 1/2" sat 100 meters and put 40gr. bullets out at just over 3,300fps. My longest gopher kill with it was 454yards using the Nosler 40gr. Ballistic Tip.
Euro brass is too small in capacity to utilize this powder to it's best performance as RP brass holds almost a full gr. more than WW brass and WW is almost 1/2gr. capacity over the Euro stuff like RWS. In a 10gr. capacity ctg. 1 1/2gr. over RWS is a lot. It's also 100fps faster than WW brass.
So - the hornet comes of age depending on what rifle you are shooting it in.
WW brass uses up to 13.5gr. Lil'Gun with 40gr. bullets and R-P brass holds up to 14.4gr.
Crimped with the Lee Factory Crimping Tool, SD's are lower than 20fps. Without the crimp,performance suffers with huge shot to shot variations in speed. This is due to the small weak case.
I have put over 10,000 of these loads through my 2 CZ Hornets, my buddies Contender and another friend's Ruger M7722Hornet, so I know the loads are safe in these modern rifles. The older ones, probably not, even though Hodgdon lists low pressures for these loads. They also list lower speeds than I obtained in all 4 of these rifles.
With those loads in a modern rifle, the old Hornet pretty much matches the .221 Fireball from a rifle.
LG powder is quite incredible in the smaller case - high vel. low pressure.
With it, I never lost a single case to primer pocket expansion, yet that 'problem' is normal in this case with standard Hornet powders of old.
So - mild or wild, the Hornet is still a king.
All the guys with them on CZ's rave about the accuracy. Both of mine were the Euro "Lux" model.


Hi Daryl, thanks for all the loading info! I will try some of your suggestions and powder options. Brass is a problem here! My hornet is a Brno 465 with double triggers. Will try and post pics later

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5061
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: szihn]
      #348468 - 25/12/20 08:19 PM

I have a 22 Hornet, Aussie made. It is a Lithgow 303. Converted by Slazenger to 22 Hornet. My father use to put 10 shots into about 3/4" at 100 Yards, open sights, with IMI ammo. It was not until I started using Small Pistol primers that my 5 shot groups went into about the same, with a scope. Big and heavy for a Hornet but comes to the shoulder well.

I also have a 6.8SPC and in Aust I would say it is an almost extinct calibre. Which is unfortunate as it is better than a 223 for most game. The only reason I have any 223's is I occasionally help out a professional shooter -culling Kangaroos- and the ammo is cheaper and far easier to get.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Rule303]
      #348477 - 26/12/20 04:53 AM

Vintage Canvas: I should also have noted, I adjust my .22Hornet FL sizing die so only 3/16" of the case neck is sized. This kinda leaves the look of having 2 shoulders, one larger than the other. It helps with case capacity as well as accuracy as the case is more properly aligned in THAT chamber.
Seemingly little things are what makes a difference.
My first CZ .22 Hornet preferred pistol primers, while the second one did not care. Guns are different, even the same models from the same manufacturer.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #348506 - 27/12/20 08:43 AM

Quote:

While we are on the 8x57 round and the rifles that are still available... thought you would appreciate this one!
[image][/image]

Just manage to buy it at a decent price in very good condition.
It is a Brno model 21, with a spoon bolt in 8x57S.
As I also have a 7x57 and a 8x60S, was thinking that the 8x57 would fit in nice in the middle of the other 2 classic cartridges!



Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Donuts, Vintage Canvas!

Any of the older cartridges, that are ignored by the shooting media, are good candidates for this.
In addition to all those classic cartridges, mentioned above, we could add the .270 Winchester to this list.

D'oh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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