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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Cleaning double rifles
#184061 - 18/06/11 12:49 PM

Just for Nigel I have added all the other posts from posts on the previous thread not able to be cut off nicely. Original posts now deleted off the Sabatti thread.

The previous edited thread:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=183746&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

Quote:

Oval crown.

Missing Rifling

Quote:

450_Ackley
I'm having trouble just getting over the amount of copper in those barrels, that'll take days just to get it clean, let alone get it to shoot.

DC

Quote:

500nitro:

Doesn't affect Double rifles, especially big bores like it does Bolt actions. I clean at the end of a range session / overnight but if I am out hunting the gun can stay like that for a few days yet it still shoots.

Suggest get another copper remover.

Quote:

FATBOY404
500.
What a load of crap mate.
The reason it doesn't seem to effect DR is that they are only shot at 25-75 yards most of the time and accuracy is only about an 1/8 of a bolt gun and shot with open sights.

And no I don't own a DR either before you mention it.

If using my rifles but not firing a lot of shots I wont clean for a couple of weeks but normally clean every 20 - 30 rnds as a rule.

When I was roo shooting I would clean every night weather 20 shots or 100.

Just by shear volume of copper it will take a lot to get that fouling out.

What is your magic copper solvent as I am obsessive with solvents and there's not to many I haven't tried.

My best list is 1= JB's
2= Pro shot copper solvent
3= Gunslick foaming bore cleaner
4= Sweets

OK,so let me have it and point out my mistakes please.

Quote:

450_Ackley
Righto Nigel, let's get a few things straight here.
one - I don't own a double rifle and probably never will.
two - I'm damn sure there aren't many on this forum that have barrels as clean as what I have, or are as fussy as I am about having my rifle barrels clean.
three - If you are going to suggest another copper remover, why haven't you mentioned it?
four - that double rifles barrels are fouled, and it will take days to get them clean.
five - I obviously have higher standards than you do when it comes to looking after my rifles, I'm not wealthy by any means and have had to work hard for every dollar I've got, so I look after my gear.
six - as to not affecting double rifles as much as bolt guns, that's just plain old crap.
seven - at the risk of offending other double rifle owners, I will agree that they might still shoot when fouled, but they will never have shot as well as a good bolt action in the first place.
eight - if you're going to have a go at me, do your homework first.

Regards,
David.

Quote:

mauserand9mm
My CZs (375 & 458) foul like that. While Sweets 7.62 is good for copper removal, it was still a chore. I've switched to Tetra solvent. It still has an ammonia smell to it but can be left in the bore for a few days without damage of etching. It still takes about a week and a half with patching and reapplication every other day (the fouling comes out purple BTW).

I've also followed the lead of others and Cerra-coated both these bores. I thought I may have stuffed up the application but it seems to have started working now - it does take a few shooting sessions before it comes good. I know a guy with a 458Lott and another with a 505Gibbs and they both had their bores done, and they attest to it working. Can provide further info if you like.

Quote:

FATBOY404
M&9
I have heard a little of the product but no owner user stories. Maybe a new post on it mate.
The above was not aimed at you M&9.

By far the quickest is JB's on a tight patch. 450 Ackley put me onto it because when you go to a shoot and have 6,8,10,12 guns to clean it is a pain in the arse taking a week to clean each one.

I like the Pro Shot copper solvent for the over night thing as it is as vigorous as Sweets but more user friendly.

Quote:

Ben

Fellows, probably a silly question: Can you buy cleaning solvents over the phone and have them posted? I'd guess not, but I suppose if I ask, my local should be able to get something in.

Quote:

500nitro
Ben

PM sent. Yes you can - but only some of them.

Quote:

FATBOY404
Ben I have had stuff posted.They just tripple bagged it.

Quote:

FATBOY404
Still interested in your reply 500Nitro ??????????????.

*******

Quote:

Righto Nigel, let's get a few things straight here.
one - I don't own a double rifle and probably never will.
two - I'm damn sure there aren't many on this forum that have barrels as clean as what I have, or are as fussy as I am about having my rifle barrels clean.
three - If you are going to suggest another copper remover, why haven't you mentioned it?
four - that double rifles barrels are fouled, and it will take days to get them clean.
five - I obviously have higher standards than you do when it comes to looking after my rifles, I'm not wealthy by any means and have had to work hard for every dollar I've got, so I look after my gear.
six - as to not affecting double rifles as much as bolt guns, that's just plain old crap.
seven - at the risk of offending other double rifle owners, I will agree that they might still shoot when fouled, but they will never have shot as well as a good bolt action in the first place.
eight - if you're going to have a go at me, do your homework first.

Regards,
David.

one - So ?
two - Fine by me
three - I have before and I have again above.
four - We'll debate that. I have one DR that is a prick to clean regardless of solvent used.
five - I look after my gear - so do I and I learn't that years ago when lives depended on it plus it was how I was bought up. I'm more worried about lack of oil / coating on the gun up north than a little bit of copper. You can see rust develop in front of your eyes up there.

six - Big bore DR's will still more often than not shoot
even when well fouled. Mine do anyway.

seven - Comparing a bolt to a double is like comparing an Apple and an Orange so it is totally irrelevant. As someone on here has said before, if you want to or expect a DR to shoot like a Bolt Action, get a Bolt action !!! LOL

eight - A difference of opinion, that's all. I can more than hold my own in a discussion on DR's an any DR forum WITHOUT having to do my homework on a person (with maybe the odd exception relating to historical knowledge of British guns where 400 NE and one or two others know far more than me - and I think most people on here would agree with that).

Edited by NitroX (18/06/11 08:51 PM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
#184062 - 18/06/11 12:54 PM

FYI, I only went to Wipe Out (Foam Bore cleaner) years ago as I was sick of getting a nose full of ammonia from Sweets 7.62.

I did my research, got some cans in, did some tests and I was happy. They were the original Foam Bore cleaner, everything else is a copy IMHO.

Problem was they had to go to a liquid as it was far easier to store and ship. The good things is IMHO it works better than the foam as it is slightly stronger. The other good thing is we can ship it within Australia by post which is done with a powder solvent as well that I get made up here so you can get both without having to suffer Dangerous Goods charges.

It can't be that bad, Graeme Wright used it.

.

Edited by NitroX (18/06/11 05:10 PM)

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FATBOY404
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
#184063 - 18/06/11 01:14 PM

Have used 3 cans of "wipeout" and found it good but went to "Gunslick Foaming bore cleaner" because it worked just as good (and 1/2 the price) but had a better applicator.

A mate is using "Patchout" and has good things to say about it.

Also have a bottle of accelerator if you want it.

4" at what range.

There would be some DR that would out shoot some bolt guns but they would be the exception not the rule imo.

If you have a bolt gun like my 338-06 that shoots 1/2" it is easier to pick when fouled than a DR that starts off at 4".

I think DR guys have a different level of accuracy thats all.(not bagging DR as I know why and how they came about).

Before I get hung out to dry by other DR users I am only replying to 500's statement that fouling doesn't hurt big bores accuracy.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

Edited by NitroX (18/06/11 05:10 PM)

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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: FATBOY404]
#184066 - 18/06/11 01:40 PM

I import and Distribute Wipe Out Patch Out so have boxes of it thanks.

Re the foam, it is easier to use a tube to insert it from the breech end.

"4" at what range" The target is 4" (a red circle of 4"), the DR regulates better than that.

"There would be some DR that would out shoot some bolt guns but they would be the exception not the rule imo."
Agreed. I have a couple that are deadly accurate.

Not sure on different levels of accuracy, I expect and get my guns to shoot but 2 barrels is harder than one, especially open sighted.

.

Edited by NitroX (18/06/11 05:09 PM)

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FATBOY404
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
#184072 - 18/06/11 02:25 PM

Arhh.........but with the Gunslick,the straw is integral and cant come off and make a mess,just a little more user friendy as I said.

PS. I will buy some patch out off you if you still have some ?.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

Edited by NitroX (18/06/11 05:10 PM)

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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: FATBOY404]
#184074 - 18/06/11 02:29 PM

Quote:

Arhh.........but with the Gunslick,the straw is integral and cant come off and make a mess,just a little more user friendy as I said.

PS. I will buy some patch out off you if you still have some ?.

The tube doesn't come off if you attach it right.

I came up with the Straw idea for Wipe Out many years ago and sent him pictures which he then incorporated into his product.

With the clear plastic tubing, then used a pencil sharpener to sharpen the end so it made a really tight seal on the shoulder.

I have 3 sizes - up to like 223 / 30 cal, up to 375 type and then 458 and above, but most of those don't have shoulders or are DR's anyway.

I have about 148 bottles of patch out ATM, more on the way.
PM me.

Edited by NitroX (18/06/11 05:09 PM)

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
#184080 - 18/06/11 03:15 PM

So what's the go for removing lead and BP fouling apart from the traditional)?

Edited by NitroX (18/06/11 05:09 PM)

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FATBOY404
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: kamilaroi]
#184084 - 18/06/11 04:07 PM

Ed's Red works really well on lead and powder fouling.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

Edited by NitroX (18/06/11 05:08 PM)

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NitroX
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: FATBOY404]
#184105 - 18/06/11 09:00 PM

Quote:

500nitro:
John, why didn't you just move them to a new, separate thread instead of selective editing (since their are still 3 or 4 posts still on this thread) ?

Just to make Nigel happy I have cut and paste all the posts and deleted them off the thread on sabatti's reported or alleged problems.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroX
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: NitroX]
#184107 - 18/06/11 09:10 PM

Last post added.

500nitro:

Quote:

500.
What a load of crap mate.
The reason it doesn't seem to effect DR is that they are only shot at 25-75 yards most of the time and accuracy is only about an 1/8 of a bolt gun and shot with open sights.

And no I don't own a DR either before you mention it.

If using my rifles but not firing a lot of shots I wont clean for a couple of weeks but normally clean every 20 - 30 rnds as a rule.

When I was roo shooting I would clean every night weather 20 shots or 100.

Just by shear volume of copper it will take a lot to get that fouling out.

What is your magic copper solvent as I am obsessive with solvents and there's not to many I haven't tried.

My best list is 1= JB's
2= Pro shot copper solvent
3= Gunslick foaming bore cleaner
4= Sweets

OK,so let me have it and point out my mistakes please.

Not sure about you but accuracy 1/8th of a bolt gun ?We check any DR's we shoot before going out and fon't have any problem putting them in a 4" circle where aimed.

If I was roo shooting, I would do the same.

Re "magic copper solvent", not magic, just what works for me (and it has been mentioned before on this forum). I agree that JB and pro shot are good, I don't like the other two, especially "Sweets 7.62" which is why I origianlly moved away from ammonia based cleaners.

I moved to Wipe out Foam Bore cleaner but now that that is not available, I use WIPE OUT PATCH OUT which is essentially a stronger liquid form of the WIPE OUT Foam Bore Cleaner.

And if in a hurry, I also use a bit if the WIPE OUT accelerator which speeds up the process (and was originally designed for bench rest shooters in time constraints.

.

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DarylS
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: NitroX]
#184124 - 19/06/11 02:59 AM

I have Sweets and CR10 on the shelf. along with several others, Butches Bore Shine, Outers, Birchwood Casey's Gun Srubber. - Barnes CR10 and Sweets, heretofor the best copper removers other than JB in normal rifling ar enow sitting dormant along with the others, except for Butches.

With the advent of my shooting .17 cal rifles, which have only .002" of rifling depth, and the possibility/probability of damage to the throat and muzzle with multiple strokes of the rod suing any solvents or paste - yes - I have custom made bore guides), I've switched entirely over to Wipe Out foam.

I have a bottle of accellerator, but it doesn't work well - for me. I foam the bores, let them sit, slightly muzzle-down and 2 patches pushed through in the morning that fall off at the muzzle and they're clean - any of my rifles, even the bad foulers, the 9.3x57 and .375/06IMP - both seem to pick up more copper than they should. Wipe-Out has worked incredibly well for me.

500 - that DR's muzzle - horrid damage, or misuse or whatever. Nasty oval with missing lands and grooves. Can't be bore wear from a rod, - if so, must have been fiberglass or a long rat-tailed file & why isn't the right barrel worn and why would anyone clean from the muzzle in the first place? That's not clear thinking at all.

I've seen the muzzles of muzzleloading DR's filed to divert balls in or out to counter poor regulation, but this doesn't appear to be that, due to the narrow 'groove' cut out, rather than an even dresssing of the muzzle at an angle.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (19/06/11 03:02 AM)

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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: DarylS]
#184128 - 19/06/11 04:27 AM

One thing I would like to know is has anyone ever had a cleaning agent affect the solder on a DR's barrels.

I have never heard of it happening but many years ago Graeme Wright mentioned it to me when he was testing Wipe Out as something he always checks with a new cleaning agent he is looking at using on Double Rifle's.

I don't believe that a cleaning agent could but you never know !!!

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
#184230 - 20/06/11 01:20 PM

Here's a photo of what my 458 looks like after a shooting session:

...and my 375 is worse - it is virtually copper plated, grooves and lands.

Now you guys have me confused, I've only ever tried Sweets 7.62 and now Tetra. How bad does everyone elses fouling compare to mine? The use of Tetra still requires patch and reapplication over night every couple of days for a week and a half.

I've used the JBs non-embedding paste once to get the bore as clean as I could before I Cerakoted it. I understand that JBs is an abrasive and will try and minimise the use of it.

Now the Cerakote-ing - anyone else done this?

I came across it after finding out that one guy at our club had had it done to his 458Lott, so I found the NIC Industries website (manufacturers of Cerakote) and emailed them which of their productes to use for the bore, as this wasn't specifically mentioned on their website. They didn't reply to me direct but to SLR Coatings here in Brisbane who are agents for Cerakote, and they contacted me (I think the guy's name is Geoff?).

He sent through info on how to do it and what it will and won't do. Anyway, I bought a bottle and went through the procedure on both the 375 and 458. It's easy enough to do but the bores need to be absolutely clean for it to work properly. It took weeks to get the copper out (soaking overnight etc) and then I used the JB nonembedding to get the last of any other fouling out.

Apparantly it takes a few sessions of shooting before it starts to work effectively - the heat and pressure from shooting "sets" the Cerakote.

The results of my coating are a bit mixed, but I've only shot each a couple of times since I did them. The 458 still fouls badly but does clean up a little easier, but the 375 is still as bad as ever. I concede that I may not have prepared the bores adequately in the first place.

I know of two guys that got SLR Coatings to do the bores on their rifles (and the PITA cleaning too) and they are very happy with the results. At least I have plenty of Cerakote left to be able to try again and/or other rifles. Best that those interested contact SLR Coatings direct as he will email out the info direct.

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DarylS
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: mauserand9mm]
#184231 - 20/06/11 01:33 PM

mauser, that bore looks like my 1929 Husky 9.3x57 after 5 or 40 rounds. One night's soaking in wipe-out and it's virtually clear.

I first used the wipeout in it late last summer, and then again in the fall. Before that, I'd just used a normal cleaning with butches, which barely touched the very heavy copper fouling.

It took 2 days soaking with wipe-out to get it clean the first time - right back to black steel-no copper. Now, after a range session, it only takes one soak - overnight, just like any other rifle. My bore is reasonable, listed as good, not excellent, yet it fouls no more than most factory barrels of rifles today.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: DarylS]
#184238 - 20/06/11 02:49 PM

General consensus seems to be pointing to Wipe-out - I think I'll have to go out and buy a can to try myself.

I've also recently stopped using bronze brushes and started with nylon instead (for the powder fouling using Hoppes). Actually this came about because, apparantly, bronze brushes will cause the CeraKoat to eventually come out of the bore. But I now think bronze brushes are probably too harsh for any bore. Opinions?

(Maybe this thread doesn't entirely belong in the double rifle section alone?)

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500Nitro
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: mauserand9mm]
#184239 - 20/06/11 02:57 PM

Quote:

General consensus seems to be pointing to Wipe-out - I think I'll have to go out and buy a can to try myself.

I've also recently stopped using bronze brushes and started with nylon instead (for the powder fouling using Hoppes). Actually this came about because, apparantly, bronze brushes will cause the CeraKoat to eventually come out of the bore. But I now think bronze brushes are probably too harsh for any bore. Opinions?

(Maybe this thread doesn't entirely belong in the double rifle section alone?)

Fristly, Wipe out Foam bore cleaner in a can is no longer available. It is now called Wipe Out PATCH OUT and is a liquid in a bottle. Wipe Out PATCH OUT liquid is STRONGER than the foam bore cleaner.

I only went to using Nylon brushes because you can't use Copper OR brass brushes with Wipe out or Wipe Out PATCH OUT
for obvious reasons.

However I still sometimes use them when using Hoppe's Powder solvent or my powder solvent as I see no harm in using brass brushes as they are unlikely to damage a steel bore.

CeraKoat on the other hand, I could well believe it could scrub off a coating of it.

Just my HO.

Edit
One more thing i have notice re Wipe Out PATCH OUT. Because it is Stronger than the foam, I have found that you need to use less of it.

I would be interested to know of other people's opinion in regards to this.

.

Edited by 500Nitro (20/06/11 03:01 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
#184256 - 21/06/11 01:05 AM

I use nylon brushes to introduce normal solvents into the bore. I stopped using bronze due to much of the 'blue' on patches, coming from the brushes themselves. If using a bronze brush, even a clean, non-fouled bore will show blue (copper) on a patch. To some extent, a bronze jag could as well (haven't seen that yet), but no where near the extent a brush gives.

Too - there is very little to no abrasive benefit from a bronze brush in removing copper fouling, perhaps in a minor sense with powder fouling. Since powder fouling is easily disolved and removed without brushing by using normal solvents, the brush's use is superflouous. This convinced me that bronze brushes were next to useless in helping me clean my rifles.

As to scrubbing any action, many rod strokes are needed and many rod strokes will end up being damamging to the bore themselves, due to rod flex - so I now use as few rod strokes as possible to produce a perfectly clean bore. The solvents I use today, do exactly this, without brushing the hell out of the bore.

I do not miss bronze brushes - at all.

Brush use is a long-time argument amongst the BR clan as well - each to his own.

Use them if you want, I only posted this to advise that they aren't needed. You can get your bores clean without them. I use square patches, pushed through from the breech, to fall off at the muzzle. They are not wrapped on a long jag and stroked back and forth - one way only and gone.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Re: Cleaning double rifles [Re: DarylS]
#184258 - 21/06/11 02:38 AM

I have had great success with patched powder solvent and foaming copper-solvent foaming bore cleaner.
I rarely use brushes at all any more, my rifle bores look great.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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