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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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JeffK
.275 member


Reged: 06/03/11
Posts: 95
Loc: Perth, WA
Load development for double rifles?
      #183433 - 11/06/11 01:26 PM

Having just bought my first double rifle, and still really needing to understand regulation properly, how do you go about developing a load for them?

Do you work up and accurate load in one barrel, and then if or at what distance both barrels shoot together (which is my limited understanding of what regulation is) and see if that's acceptable or is there a better method?

It's only for club use, and is a baby in .30-06 so I can run pretty much any 30cal bullet and don't need powerful loads either.

Thanks, Jeff

--------------------
Regards, Jeff


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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: JeffK]
      #183435 - 11/06/11 01:42 PM

Most DR's are regulated to one load. The maker will tell you this I think.
You can then copy the bullet weight and velocity as a starting point.(this is my take on it).

Dont own a DR so dont really know first hand.

PS. Welcome to NE mate.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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CHAPUISARMES
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Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
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Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: FATBOY404]
      #183437 - 11/06/11 02:08 PM


Quote:

Most DR's are regulated to one load. The maker will tell you this I think.
You can then copy the bullet weight and velocity as a starting point.(this is my take on it).




Hi Jeff,

Welcome to NitroExpress.com, it is good to see that you spell your name correctly. Fatboy404 is correct with his advice. What brand of D.R. is it to start with and it would be good advice to contact the maker if it is not on any documentation that came with the rifle, target etc.

Is it a Remington / Baikal in 30.06 and if it is, there is an adjusting screw / device at the front between the barrels but lets start at the "Brand" and "Model" before we jump into the next step.

Was there any paperwork with the rifle ??

Cheers for now,

Jeff Gray

.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: JeffK]
      #183439 - 11/06/11 03:07 PM

As suggested try and find out the load the rifle was regulated for. If a modern DR the gunmaker. If a vintage DR the barrel flats may prove useful and give you the bullet weight and cordite charge.

The cordite charge can be calculated and converted to tell you the velocity the bullet needs to do.

Otherwise, it is sometimes possible to guess the load from the usual ballistics the DR chamberings had.

You will need a chronograph to work out when to stop increasing the powder charges when building up loads. ie waiting to see pressure signs on cases when reloading for a DR will mean the loads are already over charge.

Generally you stop around about when the original NE velocity is achieved.

Choose a bullet likely to be similar to the regulating bullet. Woodleighs are often designed for this purpose.

Research some loads other people have been using, and any velocities achieved. DOUBLE CHECK any loads from the internet. Loads can be obtained from reloading manuals, NitroExpress,com!, other sources, BGRC members and similar clubs etc. If the powder is different from the one you want to use, try looking up relative burn rates eg on the ADI site and estimate a similar starting load.

Use a starting load less than the ideal powder weight and work up.

Use a filler if necessary in big cases to avoide hangfires and excess pressure spikes.

Don't use bullets such as monometals, H-mantels, Partitions Barnes X in a double rifle. IMO anyway. Use a lead core bullet with more "give".

Start shooting loads of 2x2 loads, one shot from each barrel then repeat. Mark which bullet hit where, eg R1, L1, R2, L2.

Find out if the barrels are shooting high or low, crossing or not. Crossing might have the right barrel bullet impacts landing to the left of the Left barrel impacts.

Sometimes its a matter of test and see. Are the bullet impact "groups" getting closer or further apart as the powder charges are increased? As said you want the right barrel shooting more or less to the right and the left to the left, ie the barrels should not be crossing. Velocity has an effect on this.

Ideally you don't want the bullet impacts to cross at all, but hit roughly say an inch apart parallel at say 70 yards or 100 yards.

Remember as you shoot say the right barrel the gun may swing up and to the right before the bullet exits the barrel. Up and to the left for the left barrel. Increasing velocity will get the bullets out before as much movement occurs. Picture an X when the barrels were regulated and this was taken into account by test shooting the DR by the gunmaker.

Obviously you also want the load to also be individually accurate - ie just like a single barrel firearm, but this one is using one load for two different barrels so possibly a compromise. However my Tikka shoots almost one hole 2 shot groups from each barrel, about 3/4 of an inch apart - up and down - for an U/O DR. My .450 has a considerably different "groups".

Also shoot a DR without the DR touching a rest. Eg rest the DR on your hand and your hand on a rest. Otherwise the impacts may be thrown out. Shoot a big bore from a standing rest to lessen recoil effects.

Also adding a scope, or taking one off can have an effect.

You may have to play around with different powders, bullets, cases, primers etc to get it to work.

Sometimes a rifle needs regulating. As said some cheaper rifles have wedges between the barrels at the muzzle and half way along to allow re-regulation by the user. My Tikka/Valmet is such an example. Others need to be re-regulated by a competent DR gunsmith, the solder removed etc. A much bigger job!

The above is just some comments from me, and I am not an expert at it at all.

As said short cuts are finding out the makers loads, or ballistics or loads of the same cartridge by other owners.


Tell us what you have and other information if you will.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (11/06/11 03:15 PM)


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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
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Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183440 - 11/06/11 03:09 PM

Haven't had that much of a problem to get doubles to shoot both barrels well. If hand loading I start with a recommended mild load and with a Chronograph slowly work up to the recommended velocity, then go back to the load that groups the best.

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JeffK
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Reged: 06/03/11
Posts: 95
Loc: Perth, WA
Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183441 - 11/06/11 03:15 PM

Quote:


Is it a Remington / Baikal in 30.06 and if it is, there is an adjusting screw / device at the front between the barrels but lets start at the "Brand" and "Model" before we jump into the next step.

Was there any paperwork with the rifle ??





It's a Beretta Gold Sable, and I've been Googling all morning trying to find what they were regulated for, as I got nothing with the rifle (Think I'm the third owner).

I'd shot it at the club before I bought it, and the previous owner found it shot 125gr factory "varmint" loads really well, though I can't imagine that's what it was setup for at the factory!

Anyway, I've no intention of buying factory stuff, and I can probably try and duplicate that load with regards bullet and velocity, but just incase I ever shot pigs or similar with it thought it might be an idea to use a slightly heavier bullet, hence the question of how you go about it?!

--------------------
Regards, Jeff


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: JeffK]
      #183442 - 11/06/11 03:18 PM

You can try Beretta in Melbourne as well. They might be able to find out the load used for you.

I would GUESS a bullet weight of about 165 to 180 grs would be regulated weight.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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JeffK
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Reged: 06/03/11
Posts: 95
Loc: Perth, WA
Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: NitroX]
      #183448 - 11/06/11 06:23 PM

Quote:

You can try Beretta in Melbourne as well. They might be able to find out the load used for you.





Dumb question perhaps, but is the load used particular to just the make/model/calibre, or the actual individual rifle? The latter sounds daft for a production rifle, but knowing that for normal bolt guns a load that works in one may not in a seemingly identical one of the same make/model/calibre, I thought I'd ask!

--------------------
Regards, Jeff


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: JeffK]
      #183449 - 11/06/11 06:31 PM

Jeff

Generally a gunmaker will take some commercially available ammo thought suitable, rightfully or wrongly, and regulate the barrels for it.

If you are interested in how regulation is done, there are some posts, probably in the building double rifle forums where it is described. But basically the barrels are not fixed in place, rounds are shot through both barrels, a wedge or similar moved, until the barrels are regulated/shooting to the same point of aim at a given distance. Then they are soldered/fixed in place, ribs put in etc. Alex Beer re-regulated his own rifle described in a recent post after adding a scope to it.

This is one of the processes that adds a lot to the cost of a double rifle. One reason you will find cheaper doubles are not regulated at all and use other less reliable methods, or use "user" operated systems where the barrels aren't fixed at all.

BTW as your Gold Sable is an Under and Over, the same principles apply to it as a side by side. My notes above regarding Left and Right, just become Upper and Lower barrels.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (11/06/11 06:35 PM)


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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member


Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
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Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: JeffK]
      #183450 - 11/06/11 06:37 PM

Each rifle has different harmonics when fired so the barrels are adjusted to suit the given load. Now that you have mentioned that it is a quality brand and as NitroX said, contact Beretta in Melbourne http://www.berettaaustralia.com.au/beretta/ who if they don't know can find out from the factory, the other alternative is go direct to the factory for information. http://www.beretta.com/

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.


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JeffK
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Reged: 06/03/11
Posts: 95
Loc: Perth, WA
Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: NitroX]
      #183457 - 11/06/11 09:32 PM

Quote:

BTW as your Gold Sable is an Under and Over, the same principles apply to it as a side by side. My notes above regarding Left and Right, just become Upper and Lower barrels.




Yeah, I figured that much out myself, though I probably should have said what the gun was to begin with. Thanks for the other info though.

--------------------
Regards, Jeff


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Load development for double rifles? [Re: JeffK]
      #183469 - 11/06/11 11:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

BTW as your Gold Sable is an Under and Over, the same principles apply to it as a side by side. My notes above regarding Left and Right, just become Upper and Lower barrels.




Yeah, I figured that much out myself, though I probably should have said what the gun was to begin with. Thanks for the other info though.




Yes mate, you worked it out, and most do, but forums and topics stay up for years and not everyone reading works it out. Not always just for the person it is directly addressed to.

I did type but then deleted it that the barrel whip or whatever on an Under and Over would be different to a S by S as well, but not familiar with that myself, so deleted it rather than maybe type something wrong. Always willing to be corrected if commenting incorrectly.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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