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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifle Photos & Archive
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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Not a virgin anymore ... but close
      #182960 - 01/06/11 11:58 AM

Gents,

This is a not so often seen Model 32 Sauer double rifle chambered for the .43 Mauser (11.15X60R) cartridge, circa 1912. I had been keeping track of this one for roughly five years and last year the previous owner finally started thinking about letting it go. As the story goes some seven years ago the gun was thought to have been un-fired but since then its last owner and a friend of his, who also owned it for a time, have taken two black bear and a half dozen whitetail deer with it. I suppose I should see that as a good thing as now I won't feel so bad about putting a few rounds through it and perhaps whacking a critter or two myself. It's a little different from the norm (.43 Mausers) as it is proofed "Nitro" and regulated for a 18 gram (278 grain K.m.G (Kupfer mantel Geschoss) copper jacketed bullet. The rifling is the standard issue Henry style of rifling but with sixteen grooves that measure .439". There are few opinions floating around about this within a group of the German Gun Collectors Association folks but in the end I'm thinking it appears to be another one of those "who knows?" things as the makers of the day, not so unlike today, were rather accommodating to their customers wishes. My digital has not been cooperating with me in giving me a good picture of the muzzle as yet but when it does I will add it to the thread.

Regards,

Buchseman



















--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by CptCurl (01/06/11 09:18 PM)

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9035
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: Buchsemann]
      #182962 - 01/06/11 01:28 PM

very nice sauer double rifle, great caliber

Delsing in germany is making .439 softpoints with Kupfermantel at 17,9 gramm
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=174859&an=0&page=1#Post174859

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
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Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: lancaster]
      #182963 - 01/06/11 01:46 PM



Very nice indeed.


Look forward to seeing the photos of the muzzle.

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: 500Nitro]
      #182965 - 01/06/11 03:16 PM

What a cool rifle!
Can't wait to see and hear more about it.
I especially like the subtle touches - the aperture sight and the PAIR of single-set triggers!!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Posts: 5284
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Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: tinker]
      #182970 - 01/06/11 09:19 PM

That is a great rifle for the hunting woods. Please post details of your loading procedures and results.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: CptCurl]
      #182976 - 02/06/11 12:07 AM

Lovely, and quite elegant - really like the barrel length - and single sets too.

Lyman still makes a .43 mauser bullet mould - actually, both .439" and .446".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: DarylS]
      #182977 - 02/06/11 12:42 AM

Gentlemen,

Thank you.

Below is a picture of what this Sauer has been shooting. The gentleman that I bought the gun from has been shooting 300 grain soft-points made by Hawk Precision Bullets and sold as their ".43 Spanish". I have a bit of a sizing die issue at the moment due to my chambers being a little tight in the shoulder. My Lee .43 Mauser sizing die won't do the job and with the plug out won't take the neck down to where it needs to be. I'll be calling Dave Davison at CH4D a little later today and listen to the many options he generally has to offer. I have some measuring to do as well to see exactly what the deal is (and pour a chamber cast). I have Bell, Bertram, and Dominion brass.

Regards,

Buchseman



--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by CptCurl (02/06/11 08:25 PM)

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Cinghiale
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Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 406
Loc: Northern Territory
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: Buchsemann]
      #183009 - 02/06/11 06:50 PM

Nice rifle,

Do you have any history for the gun before the last owner? Are you planning on hunting with this rifle and if so what game?

Congratulations again great pickup.

Regards,


MOG

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: Cinghiale]
      #183058 - 03/06/11 02:12 PM

Both ends …

Buchseman





--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by CptCurl (03/06/11 10:07 PM)

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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: Buchsemann]
      #183066 - 03/06/11 10:03 PM

Quote:







Nide capture of the Henry rifling:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=kU5rAAA...ing&f=false

October 10th, 1871 under U.S. of A Patent 119,846.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (03/06/11 10:07 PM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: ellenbr]
      #183069 - 04/06/11 12:45 AM

I must be seeing this rifling wrong - it appears to me to be almost the exact opposite of Henry rifling in that the wide groove, normally flat botomed, is raised in the centre witht he grooves themselves being only the corners. This is evident by the corners being the largest diameter, it: the grooves. The higher crwon shows this. It is Henry-type, sort of, with reversed main groove becoming a land.

In an angled crown such as on this beautiful rifle, the tightest part of the bore, the lands, provides the longest bevel in the crown.

Of course, this might mean nothing in the shooting prowess of the gun. It is a most interesting design indeed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: DarylS]
      #183074 - 04/06/11 04:27 AM

Daryl,

I believe what we have here is a variation of figures 2 and 3 as shown in Raimey's attachment of the Henry patent rifling. There are more lands and grooves than we typically see but it's probably just another one of those gun/barrel makers choice things.

Regards,

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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AzGuy
.333 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: Buchsemann]
      #183081 - 04/06/11 10:50 AM

BEAUTIFUL......Congrats

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27000
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: AzGuy]
      #183090 - 05/06/11 12:26 AM

They are certainly in nice condition and should shoot very well indeed.

It is an intriguing case, the Mauser - 77gr. was the original BP loading, I believe. Descent capacity but a good case for smokeless powder loading too, as in not overly large.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: DarylS]
      #183102 - 05/06/11 11:27 PM

The Jeff Stephen's Sauer serialization project as chronicled in DGJ August 2004, Vol. 15 Issue 3, at page 88 gives that the serial number range 108,901 to 115,600 as having been issued a serial number in 1904. So the parts kit was set back or sitting in a corner at Sauer and sometime post 1912, possibly when times were difficult, in an attempt to fill an order older components were used.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: ellenbr]
      #183110 - 06/06/11 07:18 AM

Raimey, as this rifle still is marked with the gauge number 62.78 (,. and / were used interchangeably), it was certainly proofed in Suhl before 1912. The changeover of proofmarkings never was so uniform from proofhouse to proofhouse as the current literature makes us believe. The gauge number 62.78 stand for a bore, not groove or bullet, diameter at the proofhouse between 10.67mm and 10.92mm = gauge # 58.50. The final changeover of the Suhl proofhouse from gauge numbers to tenths of millimeters in 1912 is one of the few rather reliable dates we have. So there is no need to speculate about the gun sitting in a S&S shelf for a long time after 1904, if Stephen's dating is correct.
One should never look at a single obscure stamp and then draw wild conclusions as to maker(s), dating or previous owners.

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: kuduae]
      #183112 - 06/06/11 08:00 AM

Axel:
I could say the same of you for holding that a tubeset that experience preliminary proof pre-1910(also note the 1st set of "Eagle" "Crown/G" high on the tubes near the serial number & house number??) and then experienced final proof post 1912. I'm not living in the past hung up on some clown from the '60s, but other marks including length in mm, "Crown" over "N" and bullet type/bullet weight and their positions are typical of 1912 - 1924. Even in Mr. Cate's text I believe there was a DR with "181" stamps and powder charge over bullet type that he gives as post April 1912. In the post 1912 era there were other odd combinations. It is the bore stamp that is the culprit in the lot that is out of place in time. I'll gladly roll you high dice on this one and all this could be settled with a glance at the Sauer records. But if one holds to the reproof theory, I can't remember if there is a Nitro stamp on the frame, then your scenario is possible.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: ellenbr]
      #183121 - 06/06/11 11:52 AM

I'm fairly confident that the following image of the marks of a H. Scherping retailed Sauer is that of M4 and it has the typical pre-1910 DR marks, including an additional set of "Eagle" "Crown/G" closer to the forend lug on the tubes.



No chicken scratching lower on the flats with a "Crown/N" or bullet type. It does however have both large and small crowns where the Sauer Modell 32 only has the large crown?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (06/06/11 09:02 PM)

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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: ellenbr]
      #183203 - 07/06/11 02:12 PM

Proof marks and such …







--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by CptCurl (07/06/11 08:49 PM)

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Not a virgin anymore ... but close [Re: Buchsemann]
      #183223 - 08/06/11 12:56 AM

To use the virginity idiom here, this is like losing your virginity to Marilyn Monroe! Fantastically worth it and you don't even pause to think of what went before . . .

Congratulations and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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