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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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pjaln
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jp sauer and what caliber?????
      #182728 - 29/05/11 09:01 AM







Edited by CptCurl (05/06/11 10:12 PM)

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pjaln
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Reged: 08/06/06
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: pjaln]
      #182736 - 29/05/11 12:25 PM

posted these pics for a friend i pretty sure its built by jp sauer i just not sure of the caliber ,it is not a 22 ,,and wondering about the value ,,,,paul

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ellenbr
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: pjaln]
      #182737 - 29/05/11 01:00 PM

Curious that the single tube has the Sauer patent for an expensive method for joining tubes:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=pf1JAAA...p;q&f=false


May have begun as a 0.22 Winchester rimmed and then was altered/repaired to a diameter of 0.301" with the 172,28 plug gauge passing suggesting the 0.32" Winchester. The Sauer Tell was originally proofed for a 611 gauge(5mm) in the final state.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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pjaln
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: ellenbr]
      #182745 - 29/05/11 01:54 PM

thanks ,,,now were getting somewhere....paul

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ellenbr
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: pjaln]
      #182754 - 29/05/11 09:17 PM

As shown on the top of the tube it was a Tellbüchse II, which was fitted with the Winchester 0.22" short rim(rand)fire at 50m, but I'm curious if the side-lever is original or a later refit? A Tellbüchse II converted to a Tellbüchse IV as per the "Crown" over "R". I'd still do a wax cast to verify the 0.32" Winchester(centralfire), which was the Tellbüchse IV with sights at 80 and 125m. It was advertised as a chickenhouse longarm that would neutralize varmints that had a fancy for chicken. Is there a rear sight and what type safety does it have? I don't see the typical wing type. If you could provide the serial number, a stab could be made at a date when a serial number was issued(pre-1910 & I'd guess 1900-1907??) Have any yard birds, do you?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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lancaster
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: ellenbr]
      #182758 - 29/05/11 10:43 PM

I was sending an experienced german Sauer collector the link and thats what he told me about it:
"No, I'm not seeing this model before. The patent notes make so very little sense, since the junktion of barrels method is suitable for shotguns and drillings, but hardly for a single barrel gun. Looks to me at least not as if the method according to the patent has been applied here."

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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ellenbr
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: lancaster]
      #182760 - 29/05/11 11:22 PM

Yeah, I don't know if it is just advertising or what. May be that it was cobbled up from existing components and retro-fitted for a chickenhouse longarm?

Lauf gezogen, Kaliber 8mm für Zentralfeuer-patrone, mit standvisier nebst einer klappe, mit Riemenbügeln verschen, mit stechschloss und sicherung. Diese Büuchse eignet sich gut zum gebrauch auf raubzeug, grösseres geflügel und scheibe, schuss garantiert auf 80 und 125m.

I think this is from the 1907 Sauer catalogue and hopefully lancaster or someone can give us a correct translation.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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lancaster
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: ellenbr]
      #182761 - 29/05/11 11:38 PM

Quote:

Ye
Lauf gezogen, Kaliber 8mm für Zentralfeuer-patrone, mit standvisier nebst einer klappe, mit Riemenbügeln verschen, mit stechschloss und sicherung. Diese Büuchse eignet sich gut zum gebrauch auf raubzeug, grösseres geflügel und scheibe, schuss garantiert auf 80 und 125m.

Raimey
rse



rifled barrel, 8mm caliber for center fire cartridge, standing sight and one folding sight, swivel rings, double set trigger and safety.
this rifle is usable on small game up to fox, big birds(wild goose, wood grouse) and target shooting on 80 and 125 meter


80 and 125 meter must be the distance the sight were made for. I would say the cartridge must be than the 8x48R S&S or the 8,15x46R Frohn at least.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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ellenbr
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: lancaster]
      #182762 - 29/05/11 11:40 PM

Yeah, fox in the hen house. That was its advertised purpose. Thanks for the effort and I concur on the calibres.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: ellenbr]
      #182784 - 30/05/11 06:42 AM

Here is the page from the 1908 AKAH (a wholesaler) catalog relating to Sauer & Sohn "Tell'' rifles:


IMHO this rifle was chambered originally for the obsolete .22 Winchester Centerfire blackpowder/lead bullet load. "Rand" only means "rimmed", "rimfire" is "Randfeuer". But this is easy to check: Was the firing pin altered from rim- to centerfire? The .22 WCF case was later called 5.6x35R Vierling in Germany and loaded with smokeless powder and jacketed bullets up to a 40gr bullet @ 2600fps load. Several years later several Americans essentially did the same thing. Their efforts resulted in the .22 Hornet. The original BP .22 WCF load was plagued with short bore life due to the tiny, hard to clean bore, corrosive fouling and some neglect.
So this rifle was apparently rebored after a short time to one of the low-power, about 8mm cartridges. This may be the 8.15x 46R, the 8x 48R or some other. Don't forget the .32-20 WCF, which was called an "8mm" also by the contemporary AKAH catalog. Only a chamber cast, preferably using Cerrosafe/Wood's metal or sulphur, will tell the truth.
The sidelever may be a special order item from the S&S factory or it may have been made as an "aftermarket" item by any well-trained country gunsmith.
The patent numbers were just applied for advertizing purposes, to impress possible customers. This was a common practice, not only in Germany, but in America too.

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/11 10:12 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: ellenbr]
      #182786 - 30/05/11 07:04 AM

Quote:

Yeah, fox in the hen house. That was its advertised purpose.


No, see COTW on the .32-20 WCF: "..it is much too underpowered for deer-size animals. it is , nonetheless, a useful small game and varmint cartridge at short ranges,..." Before scopes came into general use, a stretched string trajectory was not necessary for a small game/varmint rifle. As most men cannot see an about 2" diameter target over open sights even at 100yards, they cannot hit it at longer ranges.

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ellenbr
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: kuduae]
      #182788 - 30/05/11 07:54 AM

Quote:



IMHO this rifle was chambered originally for the obsolete .22 Winchester Centerfire blackpowder/lead bullet load. "Rand" only means "rimmed", "rimfire" is "Randfeuer". But this is easy to check: Was the firing pin altered from rim- to centerfire? The .22 WCF case was later called 5.6x35R Vierling in Germany and loaded with smokeless powder and jacketed bullets up to a 40gr bullet @ 2600fps load.



That may very well be your opinion but in all the adverts from the same period I've seen the Tell II was a rimfire and the Tell III was a centralfire. The one in question is stamped a II as well as rimfire so either it was miss-stamped or it was as it is stamped.

I'm confused on the varmit/fox probing the hen house. I don't know if you've hunted many fox, but they are a wiley lot and the 0.32" WCF would fit the bill. My Dad's grandfather used a small frame Remington Rolling Block to shoot hogs in the fall and neutralize any threat to the farm. I wish I had be fortunate to acquire it but it wasn't so but I do have a larger frame version.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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8X57
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: ellenbr]
      #249579 - 26/06/14 11:43 PM

Kuduae on Nitro Express forums is the man for this question. Are there any more pictures of the proof marks?

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kuduae
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: 8X57]
      #249585 - 27/06/14 01:38 AM

Quote:

Kuduae on Nitro Express forums is the man for this question. Are there any more pictures of the proof marks?


Already put in my few grains of salt. Originally this was a standard Tell II in .22 short rimfire. Later, but still before 1912, it was rebored, rerifled and reproofed to take some 8mm or .32 cartridge.If it is still a rimfire, there are only the possibilities .32 short or long rimfires, shown too in the German 1908 Akah catalog but called .320 in Europe. According to COTW these cartridges are long obsolete. Some ammo was imported from Brazil to the USA about 1990. If converted to centerfire, the most likely options are .32-20 Winchester, 8.15x46R or 8x48R S&S. The .32 Winchester Special and the .32-40 were unknown then in Germany.

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lancaster
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Re: jp sauer and what caliber????? [Re: kuduae]
      #249588 - 27/06/14 03:39 AM

.32 rimfire is easy to load

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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