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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Musings on the Paradox bullet in Flight
      #181788 - 17/05/11 11:30 AM

I was wondering how important it is to use all of the sight leaves on my 1911 Paradox gun. The gun has sights for 50yds, 100yds, and 150yds. I don't hunt dangerous game so, specifically, can I use the middle leaf for all my shooting within 100 yards?

To start to answer the question, I needed to figure out the ballistic coefficient of Holland's Fosbery bullet. So, I plugged bullet path data provided by H&H into a ballistic prediction program. The program calculated a BC of .330.

At first I thought the value seemed high. I would have guessed the BC was going to be around .175-.250 like some big pistol bullets. But, after some reconsideration, I now think .330 makes sense. Here is why:

1. If two bullets of different sizes have the same shape (form) then the larger one will exhibit less drag than the smaller one. Ballistic coefficient values of .175 to .250 are the norm for large pistol bullets but the Paradox bullets are definitely larger.

2. Ballistic coefficients are not static. Aside from other factors, the coefficient changes as velocity of the bullet changes. The result is nearly always that bullets demonstrate higher BC as velocity decreases. Sierra lists three, four, or five different BCs for their bullets to cover various velocity ranges.

For example, for their 300gr .458, hollow point, flat nose bullet Sierra lists five different ballistic coefficients:

.120 @ 2400 fps and above
.145 between 1900 and 2400 fps
.185 between 1400 and 1900 fps
.210 between 1150 and 1400 fps
.230 @ 1150 fps and below

If a 300gr .458cal hollow point can have a BC of .230 below 1150fps then it follows that a better shaped Paradox bullet could obtain a BC of .330 with a 740gr, .735cal solid, at 1050fps.

3. The ballistic coefficient was calculated using observed (H&H obtained) velocities at known distances, i.e. real world results. Observable and measured results trump any estimate.

I believe it fair to say that the table below shows a reasonable estimation of the flight of H&H's 740gr solid bullet in their factory Paradox ammo.

When you look at the chart you will also see that I calculated the "point blank range" for a 7.8 inch "vital zone". I arbitrarily chose that size because it matches the diameter of a target I shoot. Sierra's tables provide values for a 10 inch "vital zone" but I think my 7.8 inches is a more reasonable "vital zone" for deer, bear, and elk. No matter, it all helps support my conclusion that the 100yd leaf is good for any deer sized animal within 125yds.




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Edited by CptCurl (19/05/11 08:38 PM)


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Musings on the Paradox bullet in Flight [Re: Grenadier]
      #181791 - 17/05/11 01:31 PM

Grenadier-


It looks like a good bunch of thinkin' now get out there with the chronograph and some fresh targets and let us know how it *really is*!


Will you run black powder or just smokeless..?





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Musings on the Paradox bullet in Flight [Re: tinker]
      #181793 - 17/05/11 01:36 PM


Good stuff.

Question for you though.


1000 fps ?

I thought they went faster than that.

.


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: Musings on the Paradox bullet in Flight [Re: 500Nitro]
      #181829 - 18/05/11 01:32 AM

Quote:

1000 fps ?
I thought they went faster than that.


The factory ammo is 1050fps. It is subsonic and very stable in flight. Because the bullet is so big and going so slow it tends to hold velocity very well down range. It only sheds 100fps over the first 150yds. What the Paradox bullet lacks in velocity it more than makes up for with momentum. Remember, a slow moving wrecking ball will smash through the biggest and toughest building. Likewise, the heavy, slow moving, Paradox bullet delivers a smashing blow downrange.

tinker - With my limited equipment casting and loading for the Paradox is a real chore. I am glad to shoot the factory ammo. I don't shoot black powder in my gun but I'm sure once the bullet got moving at equal velocity the downrange ballistics would be the same. My interest was in figuring out what was going on between the barrel and the target. I had never seen the trajectory worked out before. I've already seen what these guns can do on game.

Some of these guns were made with three leaves and some with two but I don't think a single leaf would be much, if any, handicap within 125yds.


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Musings on the Paradox bullet in Flight [Re: Grenadier]
      #181836 - 18/05/11 02:45 AM

I hear you on the challenges of casting big fat bullets in bulk.
When I get set up to cast for the sixteen bore rifles, I get everything out and do piles of everything.

Also, on your point-blank theory, I'm sure you'd be fine with one leaf.
I'd be interested to see if you can get a load that nails point of impact at point of aim with each leaf.


In the past I have used a similar approach (sight heights, barrel length, ballistic software...) in attempt to determine what projectile type/shape/weight a rifle had been regulated for. In the end I've gotten close with a few different rifles.
The work on paper with pencil is fun, but it's even more rewarding to get the lead on paper with gunpowder!!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: Musings on the Paradox bullet in Flight [Re: tinker]
      #181841 - 18/05/11 03:24 AM

Quote:

I'd be interested to see if you can get a load that nails point of impact at point of aim with each leaf.




Well I'm lucky there. I bought my gun out of the Paris showroom and it went to London for a once over before being sent to NY. While in London they regulated the sights for the factory ammo. I have verified the 50yd and 100yd leaves shoot to point of aim at the corresponding distances. I haven't tried the 150yd leaf at 150yds though. I think 150yds with these guns is possible but not practicable. The problem is not that the bullet would be "spent" by 150yds but that it would be difficult to hit a target at that range using the sights on the gun.

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Musings on the Paradox bullet in Flight [Re: Grenadier]
      #181842 - 18/05/11 03:53 AM

That's excellent!
Have you put photos of this gun up here on the site?
I'd very much like to see it.
Can you show detail of the sights?

As we settle on our new place in Northern Nevada, I've realized that the 25-100 yard shots so common in coastal California timber just don't happen here.
I have more work to do on my reloading room here, but soon as I can I'll be unpacked and set up to run my bore rifles more often.
When I do, I'll be working on my use of the 200 and 300 yard leaves on targets.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: Musings on the Paradox bullet in Flight [Re: tinker]
      #181848 - 18/05/11 05:44 AM

I've already posted a few pictures of the gun in the forums. This is what the rear sight looks like. Because it is a Paradox gun, all three leaves fold down so you can use the gun as a shotgun.



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Edited by CptCurl (19/05/11 08:38 PM)


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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
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H&H Paradox tragectory table [Re: Grenadier]
      #181861 - 18/05/11 11:50 AM

Well done. Holland did put out a trajectory table for the new Paradox ammunition. I have a copy, the data is below:


sight-----------30 yrd------50 yrd------75 yrd-----100 yrd------125 yrd------150 yrd

50 yards--------+0.8"---------0"-------(-2.8")-----(-7.7")-----(-15.5")------(-24.0")

75 yards--------+1.9"-------+1.9"---------0"-------(-4.0")-----(-10.0")------(-18.0")

100 yards-------+3.0"-------+3.8"-------+3.0"---------0"--------(-5.0")------(-13.0")


This is holland's chart taken off classicshooting.com. They no longer have this on the site. It won't reproduce well here, but those are the #'s. An email to them might get you a copy. I like your work on estimating the B.C.

Have you found your paradox s# in the back of the Paradox book? I'm wondering if yours might have been initially regulated for another load?



Oops, I see you backward calculated the B.C from the data I posted. I need to read more carefully....

Edited by CommandCar (18/05/11 12:01 PM)


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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2027
Loc: Denmark
Re: H&H Paradox tragectory table [Re: CommandCar]
      #182022 - 20/05/11 06:42 AM

Even with 1050 Ft/sec, the 740grainUFO keeps its speed pretty good out to 150yards surprisingly well. In doubleGun journal volume 13 Spring 2002 Issue 1, Roger Lake keeps good account for hunting with a H&H 12bor eParadox in Africa. Good artical. Recommended!.

In a volume 6 issue2 of DGJ, Ross Seyfried also writes about the paradox guns, mentioned by Roger Lake.

Edited by rigbymauser (20/05/11 06:42 AM)


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