vigillinus
.300 member
Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115
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Not long ago on this forum I suggested that any double that would not keep four shots from both barrels in 3" from rest at 100 yards ought to be got rid of, Ray Atkinson responded that this was unrealistic, 5 to 8" was more like it, and Ray suggested that using a double at over 100 yards was problematic. Now Ray's experience vastly exceeds mine and what he says has to be taken very seriously. I have only owned about ten doubles in a lifetime of shooting and only two of them would meet my own accuracy demand with factory ammunition, a Westley .318 which would actually stay inside 2" and a Timner (Coblenz) double 9.3x74R over 20 drilling, the only one I still own, that will stay inside 3" for eight shots. Two others, a Gastinne Rennete 9x57R and a Westley .375 H&H, would do it with handloads. A Rigby .350 No2 made 4". The other five were far out with factory ammo and for one reason or another I did not try to reload for them, anyway, one was an 8 bore and two shots were enough to satisfy me !
What I would like to know, and have not seen discussed on this forum, is, what were the classical makers' accuracy standards before they would consider a rifle ready for sale? What are the requirements today? Are they different for big bores and smaller rifles? For the different makers? How, for instance, does Searcy compare with Merkel, Kreighoff, Chapuis, the Italians? The Brits? If anyone has the facts, I would very much like to know them.
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mickey
.416 member
Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
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The Brit standard was 3" at 100 yards. Each maker differed but that was the standard for the better quality makers. I agree with you that a Double should be expected to do that. I can no longer see well enough to hold to this so I've changed my personal standard to 2" at 50 yards.
I know and have known more than a few shooters that could easily hold inside 3" at 100 yards and a couple that were better than that. The most accurate Double I have ever seen is a 475#2 H&H that was rebored in Austria from a 450 3.25. It held 8 shots inside 2" on one occasion and will hold 4 shots inside 3" all of the time. It is currently owned by a friend and he refuses to part with it at a price I consider fair. 
I think the range of a correctly regulated Double is only limited by the eye sight and ability of the shooter. Don't forget the Brits were shooting 1000 yards with open sights in the 1870's and doing pretty damned well. 
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Lovu Zdar
Mick
A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.
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unspellable
.300 member
Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
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The best I have seen was a 3/4 inch group at 100 meters from a European made 375 H&H. Light doubles should be regulated closer than heavy doubles. I'd regard 3" at 50 yards as the standard for a heavy. Small bore doubles were made for long range shooting at stag, such as 275 H&H where you would expect a 200 or 300 yard shot.
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bonanza
.400 member
Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
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My Merkel 357 H&H double can shoot 2.5" 6 shot group at 50 yards with hand loads. It probably could better that if I were a better shot.
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"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.
"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus
"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."
"Yo! Mr. White"
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Marrakai
.416 member
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3696
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
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vigillinus:
The various public and exhibition trials of the day were well reported in the sporting press at the time, complete with published diagrams, and are discussed in Graeme Wright's book.
Personally, I think a serious scientific treatment would fail to find that more than one in ten shooters today, in the optic age, could hold any open-sighted rifle to better than 3 or 4 inches at 100 yards, for 10 shots.
I have one very accurate double, a Jeffery .400 3-inch, which shoots around 3 inches at 100 yards. NitroX witnessed it shoot both barrels into an inch or so at 50 yards off the 'standing post' 2 weeks ago. Here's a yarn about a hunting trip with that rifle last season:
http://www.hotkey.net.au/~orrs/LongShot.htm
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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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www.marrakai-adventure.com.au
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atkinson6
.375 member
Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
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Dammit, I still live in the real world and I'd bet money that few of us can shoot a 5 inch group with a double at 100 yards...
My personal gun won the double gun Nationals last year and it will shoot near 2.5 to 3 inches at 100 with my old eyes, but my 30-30 trapper will shot an inch to an inch and a half at the same range with the same eyes. Certainly recoil is a factor in such efforts...
But IMO the double came about for shooting Buff and elephant at close range, so I am not very concerned about its performance at 100 and over...However I did shoot a buff in the sticking spot center at 108 yards with my 470 and a Woodleigh soft about two weeks ago, had to be some luck in such a shot...
For the most part about any "good" double, and they are not all good, should be able to plunk one in the chest cavity of a buff at 100 to perhaps even 200 yards if you know your gun and can shoot and have practiced at that range, after all you have about 3 feet of killing zone there...you also have about 3 ft. of wounding zone on each side of that, so take care....
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DUGABOY1
.400 member
Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
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In reply to:
What I would like to know, and have not seen discussed on this forum, is, what were the classical makers' accuracy standards before they would consider a rifle ready for sale? What are the requirements today? Are they different for big bores and smaller rifles? For the different makers? How, for instance, does Searcy compare with Merkel, Kreighoff, Chapuis, the Italians? The Brits? If anyone has the facts, I would very much like to know them.
The standards of the makers were one of the main reasons that they tried to chamber for prepiatory (spl?)cartridges! The only way they could guarantee the accuracy they advertised was to have the ammo manufacturers make their loads to the letter! This is, IMO, why some of the doubles of today do not shoot factory ammo very well. Every ammo maker wants to make his own rules! I believe anyone who is serious about useing a double rifle for it's intended purpose, is fooling himself, to think he will get the best from a double without handloading! That is, unless he is a very lucky man!
In the days of old, when doubles were the norm, and other types were uncommon, where the big five were concerned, most folks did not handload! Even today, few people outside USA, and Austrailia handload for their for doubles, or anything else. Any decent double, today, can be made to shoot much better with handloads, than with most factory ammo! I have had several doubles, over the years, that would hold the first four shots on a standard playing card at 100 yds, with a decent rest, and I don't see that as a bad group for anyone's double, regardless of the name engraved in the steel! 
The high cost of shooting some of these may not be a concern to you, but they certainly are to my budget! 
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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"
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nopride2
.300 member
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
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I doubt that many shooters could keep 4 shots in 3 inches at 100 yards using one barrel only with an iron sighted rifle.
Dave
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seroadglide
.275 member
Reged: 06/05/04
Posts: 52
Loc: West Tenn., USA
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The following is not meant to be argumentative.
It is not a great feat to keep 4 shots in 3 inches at 100yds with open sights, given an accurate rifle with good ammo.
I have seen it with some regularity. I assume you were talking about shooting from a bench or other rest. I am not only talking about doubles (few of them around here), but am including single barrel rifles because the use of one barrel only was mentioned.
If a Garand or M1A won't do that well, something is wrong. Many will do a good bit better.
You are right that many people may not be able to do it. Many are only once a year "shooters". They drag out the deer rifle the day before season opens if they bother doing that. (They really can't be called shooters.)
I have seen far too many that could not keep a 5 inch group at 100yds, off a bench, with a scoped bolt gun. 
Douglas R. Mays
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500grains
.416 member
Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
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I have shot 1 inch groups at 100 yards with a peep sight. But I cannot do it with express sights. 2-3 inches is what I get with express sights. Maybe it's just me.
At 50 yards I can shoot 2 shots an inch apart with my double. At 100 yards I have shot 2.5 to 3 inch groups per barrel, but the whole pattern does not fit into 3 inches at 100. Probably I would need to regulate the load for convergence at 100, but I probably will not do that as I could hit the heart of a buffalo at 100 yards with things as they are and that's just fine. I doubt I would ever try to shoot a buffalo at 100 yards because one of the joys of buffalo hunting is getting in close.
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nopride2
.300 member
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
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I was in a hurry when I posted the above. I was refering to an express sighted double. Two other things that make a three inch group more difficult are: old eyes and heavy recoil.
Dave
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vigillinus
.300 member
Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115
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Well, my basic question has not been answered: how well does a double have to shoot before a maker will let it go to a customer? I presume that testing is done with factory ammunition. You gents who have bought brand new rifles from Searcy, Chapuis, Merkel, Kreighoff, etc., does a test target come with it?
It would also be interesting to know how well the adjustable barrels on Valmet and Blaser double rifles work.
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Chasseur
.375 member
Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
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My Chapuis came with the test target. It was a 1-1/4" at 50 meters with a right and a left a few seconds apart.
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In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli
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500grains
.416 member
Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
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Does anyone have a target that they shot themselves showing their double getting a 3" group (both barrels combined) at 100 yards (dangerous game calibers only)? Can you post it?
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mbogo375
.275 member
Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia
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In reply to:
Does anyone have a target that they shot themselves showing their double getting a 3" group (both barrels combined) at 100 yards (dangerous game calibers only)? Can you post it?
500 grains,
Here is a target from my well used old Rodda 450/400 3" Nitro double. I personally consider this a dangerous game caliber although you may be referring to larger bores. It was shot with the issue express sights, and would probably be better with a finer bead front sight. This rifle has a rough bore, but consistently produces good groups.
Jim
One hundred yard group.
The following group was shot at about 35 to 40 yards with 400 grain Hawk round nose soft points (I haven't tried them at 100 yards yet). For comparison, that orange target paster is 1".
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vigillinus
.300 member
Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115
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Mbogo. Remarkable. A keeper.
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ThomasEdwards
.300 member
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
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same here re my beretta gold sable (9.3x74r), except that the test target showed sub-moa at 60 metres. with supreme dedication and concentrated effort, i can on occasion duplicate the results at 50 yards.
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mickey
.416 member
Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
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Here are a couple of more targets. I can't see well enough anymore to shoot at 100 yards but these should work at that range.
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Lovu Zdar
Mick
A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.
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André
.333 member
Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Brussels (Belgium)
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Here's a pair of my FN-Browning o/u in 9,3x74R at 50 m :
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André
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3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.
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