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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets
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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Saturday's casting session
      #179833 - 24/04/11 09:29 AM

Found some time yesterday to cast a few bullets, I usually run 2-3 moulds at one time, rotating around each mould, allowing time to cool between casts. Once I get a rhythm going, it's not hard to end up with a good pile of bullets after a few hours.
The moulds I used yesterday are a CBE 258-80-SP, an 80 grain pointed bullet for my wifes 257 Roberts, I load it with 12 grains of TrailBoss for 1773 fps.
This is a pic of some of the bullets from the mould.



The next one I cast was a mould I've just aquired, it has taken me about 5 years of searching to get this mould, I bought it as a secondhand mould, it arrived brand new, it had never cast a bullet... until yesterday.
It is an old discontinued Lyman bullet 3589, or 358009, and was touted as being THE bullet for the 35 Whelen, we'll see soon enough. Straight from the mould it weighs 282 grains, which is what Lyman listed it as. I can't wait to get some of them loaded up and head to the range.



The last one I cast is a CBE mould for FATBOY404, it will be for his 404 Jeffery, as soon as I make a new lube sizer die at 0.424" and a neck expander die to suit. This is a borrowed mould from a friend, who uses it in his 404. This one weighs in at 427 grains from the mould, 44 cal gas-checks will slip on nicely. Should work very well I'm hoping.



Edited by CptCurl (09/05/11 08:38 PM)

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #179843 - 24/04/11 12:03 PM

Keen to try them out Dave.
You must have the good camera out hey !!. Are they WW lead ?.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: FATBOY404]
      #179856 - 24/04/11 05:50 PM

Neale,
Yeh, broke out the good one, just for you!
They are wheelweights plus a small amount of linotype, just to harden them up a little.

DC

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Perry
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Reged: 09/11/10
Posts: 73
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #179948 - 25/04/11 11:24 PM

I have been amazed at how long the steel bullet moulds stay hot. I must try working with 2 moulds next time.

Some questions if I may 450, I notice it appears to be more than one calibre from the base of the projectile to the top of the crimp groove on your 358009 mould. I understood it was undesirable to have the base of the projectile protrude into the powder space as it could promote leading through gas cutting. Naturally if the Whelens case neck matches this the question does not apply.

When the gas check is seated on the 358009 mould or a Mountain Mould for example would you know if the Gas Checks wall thickness is designed into the length from base of projectile to the top of the crimp groove when the moulds are manufactured. If not when you seat the gas check it effectively increases this measurement and may cause the base of the projectile to protrude into the powder space a little.

regards Jacko

--------------------
"To my deep mortification my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' " -Charles Darwin

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: Perry]
      #179954 - 26/04/11 02:55 AM

If I may -

Most gas check shanks on bullets are tapered slightly. This fits the slightly tapered flare of a Hornady crimp-on gas check slghtly better than the Lyman straight sided, slide on gas checks.

Either work just fine, however. The gas check usually doesn't come to the top of the bullet's GC shank, and makes for an extra, narrow grease groove after lubing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: DarylS]
      #179972 - 26/04/11 06:56 AM

Perry,
Yes, it is desirable not to have the gas-check or any part of the bullet protrude into the powder area, best to keep it in the neck. The 35 Whelen does have quite a long neck, compared to newer cartridges, and the 3589 bullet was designed around the Whelen. I don't crimp my cast bullets anyway, so the crimp groove for me, acts more as a scraper groove than anything else.

On the Mountain Moulds site, which is what I'm thinking you are refering to, lists the bullet length, this is without the gas-check. the added few thousands won't make too much of a difference. I find the "length inside the case" measurement more useful. Also, his twist rate he lists is a guide, don't take it as gosphel.

Regards,
David.

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: DarylS]
      #179974 - 26/04/11 06:59 AM

Just looking at that 35 cal cast bullet. They look the "goods" don't they ?.

Now for a silly question !,

Can you run two pots,one with a harder lead for the base and a softer lead one for the first third of the nose pouring them one after the other ?.

This I would imagine has been done before and if so is it practical ?.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: FATBOY404]
      #179978 - 26/04/11 07:36 AM

Neale, you could... but, measuring the precise amount of softer lead for the tip is a nightmare, and then having it harden too much before you pour the base. It has all been done before.
You can still buy moulds that cast the tip part first, by itself, then after they harden, you can place it in the full mould cavity, then pour the base section, or you can cast both parts seperately and epoxy them together, the weakest part will always be the join however, they come apart there when they hit something.
Also hard and soft alloys vary in dimension, even when cast from the same mould, and getting the two parts to fit correctly is nearly impossible.
Best to make a slightly softer bullet, load it so it doesn't lead, and hope for the best results possible.
Hollow points don't open up as readily as jacketed hollow points, at the speeds we would be driving cast bullets.

Even read a story in an old magazine last night about wire wound cast bullets, where the caster wound up copper coils from wire, placed them in a specially made mould, poured the core and had himself a semi-jacketed bullet, no leading and softer core lead. The downside is that he could only make 17 per hour!

Regards,
David.

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #180015 - 26/04/11 07:15 PM

All good points and like I said "silly question".

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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Sarg
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180018 - 26/04/11 07:37 PM

I think a good question , saved me trying it one day , as I was going to !

Thank you !

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: Sarg]
      #180045 - 27/04/11 02:07 AM

Casting soft points is not a 'silly' venture, if you need them for hunting. It isn't as simple as casting pure lead for the nose, and hard for the base.

Usually the nose must be a lead/tin ratio, up to 10:1 (to withstand higher pressures without slumping) and the base, a lead, antimony, tin alloy. Thus, the bullet can be heat treated to further harden the base, without hardening the nose. The straight lead/tin nose mix won't harden due to the lack of arsnic in it's mix. The WW/lead/tin base (#2 alloy) will harden further (arsnic in WW), but a straight WW alloy base can become even harder than if tin is added (which addition softens the mix).

Verl Smith's Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets shows why and how.

I've done soft noses for the 44 mag. but not for rifle bullets. It can be successful and/or painful to do. It's certainly picky casting. The nose cast ladle must hold exactly the right amount and no more.

Once the lead temperatures are correct, the 'weld' is virtualy impossible to see, until oxidation makes it clear due to colour differences.

Soft nose slumping (bullets becoming wad cutters) can be a problem with higher speed, high pressure loads.

The Lyman #3589 is a super hunting bullet as it is, perhaps outdone only if it had a flat nose instead of round.

An alternative to casting in moulds.

It is easier to cast lead cores into .30 MI Carbine brass to make .358 bullets, or lead cores into .223 brass or 3/8" pipe to make .375" bullets, than to make soft nose bullets in a bullet mould. The jacketed bullets thus created become very cheap (range pickups) and useful for the full range of speeds and game available in that rifle. The .223 brass needs to be annealed then sized to .375" before being turned into a bullet. Both are then shortened/trimmed to whatever length you desire. .375" bullets can be made to well over 350gr. and .358's easily to 300gr. using ctg. brass - or whatever length/weight you want.

It's an interesting alternative to casting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: DarylS]
      #180101 - 27/04/11 05:03 PM

Some good looking shaped bullets there Dave.
Will be interested in the performance and loads for the .404cal ones. I cast 400grainers from my Hoch mould and size to .425 for my .404 and have also cast 350grainers from Von Gruffs mould. They perform very well.
Hate to mention it but out of curiosity your bullets look to have been cast slightly cool (some wrinkly showing in the photos and bullets bands not so sharp edged). Is this intentional on your part? You do say that you run 2-3 moulds at once, just wondering if they are cooling a little quickly. I do find it hard to get everything at the right temperature but once I get in the groove I generally cast towards a little frosting on big bullets. They fall from the mould well and size perfectly in the Lyman 450 lubrisizer.
Of course as always the proof is in the pudding and if they shoot well then that's all that can be asked when casting bullets. Good luck with your loads and please keep us informed.

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: eagle27]
      #180116 - 27/04/11 07:57 PM

Eagle27,
Good eye, I was probably casting a bit cool, the pot was measuring about 670 F, I had a few problems with the 3589 mould with a frosty spot just above the front band, when it went frosty, you could see a definite sunken spot, right at the frosty point, it seemed to go away when the moulds cooled a little. I cast a few more again today and never had the problem, might have just been something in the mould, as it was new and unused when I got it last week.

I also find that I can cast a lot better bullets when it's raining outside, seems as though the higher humidity tends to cast better, have no idea why. A fellow caster at Dalby swears by the same thing.

I'm in the process today of getting a sizing die annealed, honed out to .424 and re-hardened for Fatboy. got his neck expander die made today as well, shouldn't be far away from firing a few.

Regards,
David.

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
Posts: 1730
Loc: QLD
Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #180118 - 27/04/11 08:10 PM

Sounds good Dave. What about the bore gun ?.

I do have a lot to learn as they looked fine to me.
I rang Daryl today to see how my 8x68 stock was going. He was bloody crook he said with some sort of a flood related pneumonia.

Still a couple of weeks away but he has fitted the action and grip cap.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

Edited by FATBOY404 (27/04/11 08:13 PM)

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: Saturday's casting session [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180122 - 27/04/11 08:42 PM

Picked up the bore gun yesterday, looks really nice, but the stock is a little "shiny". Will have to wait for the finish to harden up properly, then I'll knock it back a bit with rubbing compound.
I'll take some photos then and post them.

Stock fits like a good shotgun.

Talk to you soon.
DC

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