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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Rock Island paradox
      #179328 - 18/04/11 12:13 PM



Nice paradox up for auction at Rock Island, although the price is.........








http://www.rockislandauction.com/search/aid/52

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Rock Island paradox [Re: gatsby]
      #179361 - 18/04/11 09:18 PM

According to the new Paradox book, that is a "Nitro Express Paradox". Regulated to 150 yrds with a version of the Lead/Aluminum composite bullet. I think it is the 606 grain aluminum cored slug @1275 fps. The book is not perfectly clear.

So from a shooters perspective, this would be like owning an Explora....

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gatsby
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Re: Rock Island paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #179392 - 19/04/11 04:52 AM

Does the load make this particular paradox more desirable?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: Rock Island paradox [Re: gatsby]
      #179396 - 19/04/11 06:13 AM

Quote:

Does the load make this particular paradox more desirable?


Nope!.

I would btw. much more preferre the H&H 577/500 Magnum double...6drams + a 440grain bullet

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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
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Nitro Express Paradox [Re: gatsby]
      #179398 - 19/04/11 06:23 AM

Apparently, this version was made from abt 1914 to WWI. There is an approximation of the # made in the back of the paradox book. It is not many (<20?) plus 2 older paradoxes were reregulated for this load. My interpretation of what the authors have written is this was regulated for an 606 gr elongated aluminum cored, lead clad projectile @1275 FPS. There were 2 other lead/aluminum #'s from Hollands. The first being a solid elongated aluminum fronted bullet for the "Long Range" model and a later ('20's) hollow aluminum capped version (610gr sort of a version of the Explora type slug). At least that's what I get out of Vol I, Vol II will have the detailed chapter on ammunition...

Yes, it is a rare version and of interest to the collectors. I would bet one could get it up and running with some sort of conventional 15-1 fosbery slug. However, with respect to the information Sherman Bell has just provided in DGJ, I am not certain the outcome is quite as perdictable.

I'm a little suprised with the estimate range too. I'd cut those #'s in half and expect it to sell at the lower end, but I really don't know. It's an auction and you only need 2 people that really want it....

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gatsby
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Re: Rock Island paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
      #179399 - 19/04/11 06:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Does the load make this particular paradox more desirable?


Nope!.

I would btw. much more preferre the H&H 577/500 Magnum double...6drams + a 440grain bullet



How does that do on quail and sage hens?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Re: Nitro Express Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #179405 - 19/04/11 06:49 AM

Quote:

Apparently, this version was made from abt 1914 to WWI. There is an approximation of the # made in the back of the paradox book. It is not many (<20?) plus 2 older paradoxes were reregulated for this load. My interpretation of what the authors have written is this was regulated for an 606 gr elongated aluminum cored, lead clad projectile @1275 FPS. There were 2 other lead/aluminum #'s from Hollands. The first being a solid elongated aluminum fronted bullet for the "Long Range" model and a later ('20's) hollow aluminum capped version (610gr sort of a version of the Explora type slug). At least that's what I get out of Vol I, Vol II will have the detailed chapter on ammunition...

Yes, it is a rare version and of interest to the collectors. I would bet one could get it up and running with some sort of conventional 15-1 fosbery slug. However, with respect to the information Sherman Bell has just provided in DGJ, I am not certain the outcome is quite as perdictable.

I'm a little suprised with the estimate range too. I'd cut those #'s in half and expect it to sell at the lower end, but I really don't know. It's an auction and you only need 2 people that really want it....



Because of condition alone I would expect it to sell for at least near the lower estimate. Roger has done a good job of sub dividing the guns as to features and load data. I don't know what shooters/collectors find more or less desirable. I wouldn't mind having a harder hitting or longer shooting gun. Westley offered a slug for their Explora line which were all regulated for capped bullets. I would think this paradox would regulate with a lead paradox conical to 50/75yds quite easily.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
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Re: Nitro Express Paradox [Re: gatsby]
      #179424 - 19/04/11 01:50 PM

Because of condition alone I would expect it to sell for at least near the lower estimate. Roger has done a good job of sub dividing the guns as to features and load data. I don't know what shooters/collectors find more or less desirable. I wouldn't mind having a harder hitting or longer shooting gun. Westley offered a slug for their Explora line which were all regulated for capped bullets. I would think this paradox would regulate with a lead paradox conical to 50/75yds quite easily.



Thanks for your comment concerning the estimate, I can come up with a #, but don't follow pricing too closely. We will know soon enough. (I will not be bidding!)

I took another look this paradox, sn 15930. The Nitro Expresses were apparently sighted for 50, 100 & 150. The interesting thing is the 3rd leaf (150?) is at the rear of the barrels, just over the chambers.

It would be nice to take a look at the original cartridges in the case. I wonder if there is Holland sheet with load data in there somewhere?

Yes, I'm guessing a load could be made for this. 50 yards is relative childs play. My Evans was really tough. I could not overlook the 100 yrd leaf. I had several good 50 yard loads right off the bat. Working on the 5-6" 100 yard group reminded me of working on my thesis in graduate school. Boy was I happy when it was done.

I have a CBE HP paradox mould that casts a fairly long slug. It came with a HP peg that casts slugs about 700 gr if I remember correctly. The peg is screwed into a plate under the mould. I made several pegs of different dimensions that replace the original to increase the weight of the slug to 735, 750, etc. It would be easy to go the other way and produce a fatter peg to lighten the bullet further. I'd try the standard Paradox 740 gr loads first, but I'm thinking a long 600ish grain HP slug and Blue Dot just might do the trick (safely).

Edited by CommandCar (19/04/11 02:00 PM)

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gatsby
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Re: Nitro Express Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #179464 - 20/04/11 03:33 AM

I would be interested in obtaining some 600gr cast bullets for the paradox. I have been putting them on a lathe to take them down to 600gr. I have a load for the weight.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: Rock Island paradox [Re: gatsby]
      #180151 - 28/04/11 03:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Does the load make this particular paradox more desirable?


Nope!.

I would btw. much more preferre the H&H 577/500 Magnum double...6drams + a 440grain bullet



How does that do on quail and sage hens?



The 577/500 magnum is I believe a better huntingcaliber. The magnum paradox guns designed to shoot the rocket style bullet might be spectacular, if one can find the points to make bullets out of, but I believe a vintage paradox in general that can shoot readymade ammo from factory keeps a price down the long run.

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gatsby
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Re: Rock Island paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
      #180294 - 29/04/11 02:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Does the load make this particular paradox more desirable?


Nope!.

I would btw. much more preferre the H&H 577/500 Magnum double...6drams + a 440grain bullet



How does that do on quail and sage hens?



The 577/500 magnum is I believe a better huntingcaliber.



For turkey and pheasant? Versatility and opportunity that's a paradox. A Holland sidelock ejector, Royal, fully engraved, has condition, made in the teens, 38+2 load, originally cased,with paradox barrels... but you have to reload for it? Probably have to give it away.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: Rock Island paradox [Re: gatsby]
      #180296 - 29/04/11 04:01 PM

Quote:
"The 577/500 magnum is I believe a better huntingcaliber. The magnum paradox guns designed to shoot the rocket style bullet might be spectacular, if one can find the points to make bullets out of, but I believe a vintage paradox in general that can shoot readymade ammo from factory keeps a price down* in the long run".


*UP (is what I meant)

Edited by rigbymauser (29/04/11 04:03 PM)

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Reged: 03/10/05
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Loc: Montana
Re: Rock Island paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
      #182723 - 29/05/11 06:02 AM

$31625 including buyer's premium for the paradox and $6900 for the Holland 577/500. That sounds like someone got a good deal.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

Edited by Omnivorous_Bob (29/05/11 06:09 AM)

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Rock Island paradox [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #182733 - 29/05/11 11:24 AM

I am surprised on the 577/500, but maybe there was some flaw to the gun.

I was following the online bidding on the paradox and it seemed to have ended at 35K hammer price. I wonder why the discrepancy?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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