Forums.NitroExpress.com

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact NitroExpress.com: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls.

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies

*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

You are not logged in. [Login]

Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

Pages: 1

GH
.224 member

Reged: 04/08/09
Posts: 18
Loc: London, England

Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls.
#177363 - 19/03/11 04:35 AM

Hello Gentlemen, I'm a long time lurker but first time poster on Nitroexpress.com and may I say what a mine of information it is!

I wasn't sure whether or not to put this question here in the Aussie hunting section but as they are all dangerous game, I think, I thought it would be best asked on here.

I've only been hunting for a few years now but have well and truly gotten the bug, I got shooting here most weeks from August until the end March, wingshooting, varminting and deer stalking according to season and occasion and even managed to squeak in a trip to Africa last year for Plains game.

This last has ruined me completely, It's very difficult to sit in a high seat watching a four acre field for a Fallow to wander out when you have seen how it might otherwise be done.

So It's Russia for bear this year, Australia for Scrub bulls and hopefully water buffalo next and a cape the year after that.

I live in the UK and we have silly and onerous firearms laws meaning that I'd ideally like to get one dangerous game rifle and stick to it. I feel it's better to be a good man with one rifle than indifferent with many.

This quest inevitably leads one to the .375 H&H as far I can see, or maybe one of the .416s, so my question is how do these animals rate against each other in terms of toughness and belligerence?

I'm not recoil shy as far I can tell, I have shot .375s, .378W (the worst of all in a 8 1/2lb rifle) .458s .470, .500 and a blackpowder 8 bore at the rifle club for shits and giggles and though I'll admit they can rock your world just a touch, have not put me off the idea of bigger bores.

The second question is related to the first in as much as I see no point in going for the minimum for one, only to be undergunned on the other. It is the question of the calibre, again all assistance on this regard would be much appreciated.

If I might be so bold please restrict suggestions to commonly available calibres as getting exotic wildcats made up for use over here is very onerous.

Thank you in advance,

A

--------------------
none

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Ben
.400 member

Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: GH]
#177370 - 19/03/11 07:57 AM

How far are the shots on bears in Russia?

There really is no right answer to your question. I haven't shot Cape buffalo, but I've shot our buffalos and scrub bulls with both .375 H&H and .416 Rigby. I own and prefer the latter, but there's nothing wrong with the former. You just have to determine what you can manage combined with what you actually fancy. If you haven't done lots of big bovine hunting, I read that most professionals will recommend a scoped .375.

Good luck in your quest, and welcome to NX!

Ben

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

kamilaroi
.400 member

Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: Ben]
#177381 - 19/03/11 09:52 AM

404 JEFFREY

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: GH]
#177383 - 19/03/11 10:39 AM

The .416 are more versatile calibers for heavy and big game . Dependent of your budget the 416 Rem.Mag or the 416 Rigby ! The 460WM is a another option,--- if you can manage it ! Imho there are not universal calibers ! Use enough gun what you like and what you can shoot accuratly !

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39881
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: grandveneur]
#177395 - 19/03/11 02:07 PM

If only one "big" bore rifle, I'd go for the .375 H&H Magnum. The original "one world rifle".

Can at a pinch be used for medium range hunting, with a similar trajectory to a .30-06.

Can use lighter bullets for medium game hunting.

Will kill everything up to and including elephant.

I shot my one and only cape buffalo with a .375 H&H Mag. Will be fine on scrub bulls too. And the calibre produces good results on water buffalo too.

A BIG advantage to a UK resident is .375 H&H Mag ammo is reasonably easy to buy at a reasonable price. So if you are limited to FMJ ammo in the UK for "target" shooting, it might be possible to access suitable ammo such as Norma for good hunting ammo.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

eagle27
.400 member

Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1165
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: grandveneur]
#177397 - 19/03/11 02:16 PM

Like others I don't know what sort of range you would be shooting Russian bears at but of course the thrill of hunting dangerous game is to get in close. I'm a 404 Jeffery exponent myself. Its a truly tried and tested cartridge having taken thousands of elephant and other big and dangerous game. That classic tapered case is just made for reliable feeding and easy reloading. Can be boosted to same pressure and near enough same velocity as the 416s if you ever wish to but this timeless cartridge made its reputation as the workhorse of Africa with velocities around the 2100 - 2250fps mark with the cup and core FMJ or SP bullet. Plenty of factory loads with good bullets available. A very respected round in the top end of Aussie on the big buffalo up there.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: eagle27]
#177410 - 19/03/11 06:15 PM

GH, welcome. Just a thought, the .375 will do anything you ask of it and the ammo is available everywhere (assuming belted in a magazine rifle). Knowing the UK police it might be more difficult to get bigger stuff unless you can prove you need it. Believe me the travails I have are unbelievable. In November I took my .375 back to UK for case fitting. I obviously had to get a visitors certificate and my friend, a registered firearms dealer, sorted it for me but had to write a letter confirming the gun would be at Hollands for the duration. Last Monday I phoned my friend to get me a visitors certificate as I will be picking up the gun after a range visit to Hollands to bring it back home to Spain on the 11th April. My friend phoned me last Thursday to say the police have refused to give me a certificate as I will be "acquiring" a .375 ??????!!!! My friend advised me that this was nonsense since I own the gun and have a Spanish guia and a EU firearms certificate to prove I owned it before I took it back to the UK. I told him that if the police don´t issue a certificate he can merely re-export the gun to me but I will be billing the police for all transport and insurance costs. It should be sorted next week but just a warning to you. When I took my .470 through London because I was changing airlines and terminals I had to pay a courier 500 quid to carry the gun for me from Terminal 1 to terminal 3 !! (my fault, if I had realised earlier I could have got a visitors cert for the purpose).

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

ozhunter
.400 member

Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#177504 - 21/03/11 03:23 PM

If I were in your position I would look for a quality second hand English 404J and have a Quick detachable scope added.
Cogswell & Harrison rifles often turn up at a good price.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

GH
.224 member

Reged: 04/08/09
Posts: 18
Loc: London, England

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: Ben]
#177515 - 22/03/11 05:03 AM

Quote:

How far are the shots on bears in Russia?

There really is no right answer to your question. I haven't shot Cape buffalo, but I've shot our buffalos and scrub bulls with both .375 H&H and .416 Rigby. I own and prefer the latter, but there's nothing wrong with the former. You just have to determine what you can manage combined with what you actually fancy. If you haven't done lots of big bovine hunting, I read that most professionals will recommend a scoped .375.

Good luck in your quest, and welcome to NX!

Ben

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the welcome mate.

I have done some more digging on how we'll be hunting them and it seems that they would prefer me to sit up over bait. If i'm honest this is not what I'd prefer so I've asked to try and spot and stalk. The short answer to your question is then "I don't know" I'm afraid.

I hadn't really considered the 416, my thinking being to either to stick with the 375 that I have a chance of getting licensed for deer at home or if I was to accept that the rifle would be solely for use outside the uk, go as big as possible.

From what I'm hearing the 375 should be fine for the scrub bulls and everything else, is the 416 "more" gun in a meaningful sense?

Regards,

Amir

--------------------
none

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

GH
.224 member

Reged: 04/08/09
Posts: 18
Loc: London, England

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: NitroX]
#177516 - 22/03/11 05:06 AM

Quote:

If only one "big" bore rifle, I'd go for the .375 H&H Magnum. The original "one world rifle".

Can at a pinch be used for medium range hunting, with a similar trajectory to a .30-06.

Can use lighter bullets for medium game hunting.

Will kill everything up to and including elephant.

I shot my one and only cape buffalo with a .375 H&H Mag. Will be fine on scrub bulls too. And the calibre produces good results on water buffalo too.

A BIG advantage to a UK resident is .375 H&H Mag ammo is reasonably easy to buy at a reasonable price. So if you are limited to FMJ ammo in the UK for "target" shooting, it might be possible to access suitable ammo such as Norma for good hunting ammo.

It's good to hear that the 375 will do the job, one ends up believing game is bulletproof by hanging around on some forums....

--------------------
none

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

GH
.224 member

Reged: 04/08/09
Posts: 18
Loc: London, England

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#177517 - 22/03/11 05:15 AM

Quote:

GH, welcome. Just a thought, the .375 will do anything you ask of it and the ammo is available everywhere (assuming belted in a magazine rifle). Knowing the UK police it might be more difficult to get bigger stuff unless you can prove you need it. Believe me the travails I have are unbelievable. In November I took my .375 back to UK for case fitting. I obviously had to get a visitors certificate and my friend, a registered firearms dealer, sorted it for me but had to write a letter confirming the gun would be at Hollands for the duration. Last Monday I phoned my friend to get me a visitors certificate as I will be picking up the gun after a range visit to Hollands to bring it back home to Spain on the 11th April. My friend phoned me last Thursday to say the police have refused to give me a certificate as I will be "acquiring" a .375 ??????!!!! My friend advised me that this was nonsense since I own the gun and have a Spanish guia and a EU firearms certificate to prove I owned it before I took it back to the UK. I told him that if the police don´t issue a certificate he can merely re-export the gun to me but I will be billing the police for all transport and insurance costs. It should be sorted next week but just a warning to you. When I took my .470 through London because I was changing airlines and terminals I had to pay a courier 500 quid to carry the gun for me from Terminal 1 to terminal 3 !! (my fault, if I had realised earlier I could have got a visitors cert for the purpose).

Hi Mike, thanks for the welcome.

You well know the issues I'll face in getting a rifle licensed for use in the uk, the only real way I can see of getting enough practice with it before I go hunting.

I do know a chap who has a 458 lott licensed for deer in Scotland and a few with 375 similarly conditioned so I've got some sense of hope and a plan for the same.

I know tat I won't be able to use the same reasons twice and hence wondering whether to skip the 375 altogether and get a 458.

Below it I have a 30.06 and now that the guys have made me think of the various 416s I am wondering whether a chap with a .30.06 and a 416/458 can reasonably cover it all without needing something in between.

By the way, should you ever need to go through Heathrow with guns again let me know, I know two guys who can do the couriering without needing to charge quite so much money...

Best,

Amir

--------------------
none

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

GH
.224 member

Reged: 04/08/09
Posts: 18
Loc: London, England

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: ozhunter]
#177518 - 22/03/11 05:27 AM

Quote:

If I were in your position I would look for a quality second hand English 404J and have a Quick detachable scope added.
Cogswell & Harrison rifles often turn up at a good price.

That is in fact the plan when the issue of the calibre is decided. Unfortunately we have to apply for a "slot" for a specific calibre rather than a class or even bore size! This makes it difficult to go rifle shopping for example at auctions but I like both the calibre and the rifle.

I had seen a nice Churchill in 458 Win mag and an equally nice TT Proctor in the same calibre that I was wondering could be reamed out to 458 Lott if that was the calibre I ended up going for.

I do think it has to be a nice old mauser of some description, I couldn't abide a new Sako 85 for example, as lovely as they may be.

--------------------
none

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: GH]
#177519 - 22/03/11 06:09 AM

GH, as Ozhunter said, .404 great too, I used one in OZ. I still think for what you say you are doing, unless you plan on Ele in thick stuff (and then you PH will have a back up big bore) the .375 is a world cartridge esp if you have a QD scope, rgds

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

ozhunter
.400 member

Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: GH]
#177533 - 22/03/11 07:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I had seen a nice Churchill in 458 Win mag and an equally nice TT Proctor in the same calibre that I was wondering could be reamed out to 458 Lott if that was the calibre I ended up going for.

I have a lovely 458Win on a Mauser M98 but I think I would be an effort to get the larger LOTT to work in the M98. Anyway with the great 480 and 450grn bullets available from Woodleigh, Swift and NorthFork, I don't think its necessary.

Post Extras:

Freeloader123
.275 member

Reged: 23/07/10
Posts: 86
Loc: Dallas, Texas

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: GH]
#178372 - 04/04/11 06:58 PM

Quote:

I have done some more digging on how we'll be hunting them and it seems that they would prefer me to sit up over bait. If i'm honest this is not what I'd prefer so I've asked to try and spot and stalk. The short answer to your question is then "I don't know" I'm afraid.

Depending upon the terrain, sitting over bait may be the only reasonable option as spot and stalk may be practically impossible.

What's the terrain like in the part of Russia where you plan to hunt? Flat? Boreal forest?

As to rifles, I have both a .375 H&H and a .416 Rigby. I wish I could tell you how much better the .416 works than the .375 on the really big stuff, but I'm still trying to get the sighting situation worked out. CZ built a rifle that shoots 18 inches high with the factory express sights. Excellent groups though.

So the bottom line is I've found the .375 adequate on anything from Impala to Elephant. As to Impala, there wasn't much meat damage. I don't presume to expound on your licensing laws, but if you get it licensed for deer you can actually use it on deer.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Rule303
.450 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5061
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: Freeloader123]
#178432 - 05/04/11 03:27 PM

Freeloader sorry to hear your 41CZ550 is shooting so high. Mine was spot on with the factory supplied sights. The front sight blade slides out to front- you probably already know this- just get a taller front sight blade.

Cheers

Greg

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Freeloader123
.275 member

Reged: 23/07/10
Posts: 86
Loc: Dallas, Texas

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: Rule303]
#178453 - 06/04/11 03:08 AM

Rule303, as an alternative I bought a New England Custom Guns aperture sight (which I don't believe is still available as it's not listed on their website). Unlike the factory island rear sight, it's adjustable. I prefer aperture sights, anyway.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Rule303
.450 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5061
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: Freeloader123]
#178474 - 06/04/11 05:38 PM

Quote:

Rule303, as an alternative I bought a New England Custom Guns aperture sight (which I don't believe is still available as it's not listed on their website). Unlike the factory island rear sight, it's adjustable. I prefer aperture sights, anyway.

You Sir are a very wise man. I have 2 of those sights as I have 2 CZ550's. They are still available you just have to ask for them. They are made by NECG but normally sold through Recknagle. I had to point out to NECG that it was far cheaper for me to buy them through themselves. Took me a phone call to find out what was happening and why.

The higher rear sight required a taller front sight for me. I use the Recknagle fibre optic front sight. From memory it is their second tallest sight that I have. I have one in red and when I get time I will put the Green on and see how that goes.

Keep us posted on how you go with the new sight.

Cheers

Greg

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Freeloader123
.275 member

Reged: 23/07/10
Posts: 86
Loc: Dallas, Texas

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: Rule303]
#178503 - 07/04/11 03:13 PM

You Sir are a very wise man.

I don't know about that, Greg.

But at least it's probably a pretty good indicator that I actually do shoot the rifle I claim to shoot, isn't it? Something often in doubt on other internet forums.

Thought I'd come back and edit this post. Greg, I'll make sure I provide an update on my .416. As I said, it shoots tight little groups. Just not exactly where I'm aiming. I'll start a different thread when I do.

But I also should reemphasize that the .375 H&H punches above its weight. You'll not be undergunned, GH, on any of the species you mentioned with a .375.

I have a .416 for one reason only. There are still countries in the francophone part of Africa where one can hunt unguided. I have aspirations to hunt there. You have to take some government apparatchik along to make sure you follow the rules, but you'll be the only rifle. Unless you bring a friend along, then there'll be two, but still no pro with a cannon to bail you out. The consensus of people who have far more experience than I is that reliable stopping rifles on the big five start at 40 caliber and 400 grains.

To be honest, if you need a stopping rifle on a daily basis you probably are going to want something more than a .416. Even so, if chasse libre in Africa isn't on the menu, and even if it is you'll be hunting relatively open country, you'll be more than satisfied with a .375.

As a matter of fact, if I had to choose between my .375 and my .416 I'd choose, well, my .416. Because I've got a lifetime supply of Norma and Hornady brass. Have you priced .416 Rigby factory ammo? That stuff is expensive. The components aren't cheap, either. I've got a lot more money invested in my CZ rifle and what it takes to feed her than my .375, which is a cheap date in comparison. That's my way of introducing another consideration. Are you a handloader, GH? I've heard that handloading is possible in the UK. If you don't handload, get thee a .375 H&H.

Edited by Freeloader123 (08/04/11 11:52 AM)

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

HogPilot
.300 member

Reged: 26/05/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Texas

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: Freeloader123]
#190380 - 21/09/11 04:01 PM

Hi GH. I don't know if you have it sorted out by now but here are my 2 cents. I've hunted Russia twice for Brown Bears on the Kamchatka Peninsula. Neither hunt was over bait but rather spot and stalk. Shots range from CLOSE to 100 yards or a bit more. Interior hunts in Russia may be different. I've also made several DG hunts to Africa.

I used a 416 Rigby on the first Russia trip as well as my first 2 Africa trips. I used a 375 H&H on my second Russia hunt as well as several of my Africa trips. Personally, I like the 416 better but in all honesty, the 375 is probably more well rounded. Considering where you live and the laws you are subject to, I think you would be better off with the 375. It will do everything you need it to, just not with as much authority at times. Shot placement and bullet construction will ultimately be more important to you on your Dangerous Game hunts (and all others for that matter).

Good luck on your purchase and hunts.

Cheers,

Todd

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

GH
.224 member

Reged: 04/08/09
Posts: 18
Loc: London, England

Re: Cape buffalo, water buffalo and scrub bulls. [Re: HogPilot]
#192469 - 25/10/11 01:37 PM

Hi Todd,

Thank you for your reply, The area I will be hunting is Karelia, near the border with Finland.

I haven't gotten it sorted unfortunately, recent family events put me out of action in summer and I'm taking my 30.06 loaded with 220 grain partitions.

I have driven moose hunting and Camel culling lined up for next year and so am still looking for the right heavy rifle, I take your comments on the difference between the 375 and 416 on board.

I think a compromise may be to get a 9.3x62 for use abroad and at home and a 458 lott and up something purely for trips abroad.

Thanks again.

Best,

Amir

--------------------
none

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Pages: 1

Extra information

1 registered and 234 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 7785

Jump to

NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact

Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved