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carpediem4570
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Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R
      #177213 - 16/03/11 11:19 AM

Good-Day To All:

The other day I was re-sizing some 9.3 brass. I had ordered from the Lee custom shop, the case trim-to-length guage in 9.3x74R.

After rezising the brass, I tried to trim the cases to length however, the guage would not fit into the case mouth.

I measured the guage and it is .364" diameter. Then I measured the inside case neck of the cartridges and they are .361-.362" diameter.

I measure the expander ball on my RCBS die and it is .3645" diameter.

Figuring my expander ball was the wrong size, I phone RCBS and explain the situation. They tell me they will put a new expander ball in the mail, free of charge.

I contact a buddy of mine who also reloads for 9.3x74R and borrow his RCBS sizing die. I measure the expander ball and it comes out .3645" diameter.

I am still waiting for the new expander ball from RCBS. It's been two weeks and will probably be another two weeks before it gets here. Anything coming from the USA to Canada usually takes a while.

Would those of you who reload for 9.3x74R measure your expander balls and and let me know here, who makes the die and what diameter the expander ball is.

I have been reloading for decades and have never encountered a situation like this with all the other calibres I reload for.

Comments, questions and concerns always welcome.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: carpediem4570]
      #177235 - 17/03/11 01:06 AM

It seems strange for your brass to contract or shrink back .0025" to .0035" after pulling the ball out the neck.

Usual shrinkage or contraction is .001" - isn't it?. Might depend on how small the sizer makes them prior to the expansion stage. Normal size difference between a sized case and a bullet, .0015" for accuracy ammo and .002" to .003" for hunting ammo. That means, they should be .363" to .364" after sizing & expanding.

Excessive contraction usually happens if the brass is a bit too hard. Sounds as if this brass requires annealing.

Just out of curiosity, what do the necks measure if merely sized, not expanded?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DennisDaigger
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Reged: 27/01/11
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Loc: Alaska
Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: DarylS]
      #177254 - 17/03/11 10:48 AM

RCBS die set made 1988
.3635

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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: DennisDaigger]
      #177262 - 17/03/11 02:14 PM

Daryl S:

Today, I removed the primer decapping rod from the sizer die and resized the cases. I used a fired case with a neck diameter of .368"

Since there is no sizer ball, I am getting the amount of swaging the neck is getting before it gets resized by the expander ball.

My case necks were compressed to .353" diameter .

I then screwed the deprimer rod and expander ball back into the die and expanded the neck.

The case neck was expanded to .362" diameter.

I am thinking that .009" resizing of the neck everytime I resize my case is excessive. Would the other 9.3 reloaders try this little test and let me now what you get.

Prewar 47:

I measured a friends 9.3 dies and he had .3635 as well.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: carpediem4570]
      #177294 - 17/03/11 09:38 PM

My RCBS expander ball measures 0.3648 inches and was purchased new this year.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: Tatume]
      #177310 - 18/03/11 01:44 AM

Friends have stated normal 'after sizing and expanding' diameters usually are .005" to .002" smaller than bullet diameter. That quite a range, but makes a .361" ID normal in that context. .005" undersized is good in magnum handgun ammo and staight case ctgs. like .458's, but seems unecessarily snug for a bottlenecked 'normal' round. Tight does help in promoting good powder ignition and even burning (which is why it's good in straight cases).

The excess sizing is why I stopped buying Green Box dies long ago. .653" ID is unnecessarily small - but very common for mass produced, 'cheap' dies, but allows the die making company to use reamers long past their useful life, thus reducing costs and increasing pofits.

Even though they might not have been 'cheap' per se`, they are standard production dies in design and not true custom dies (few really are).

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
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Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: DarylS]
      #177312 - 18/03/11 01:51 AM

The 9.3 x 74 mm Rimmed cartridge is technically a bottlenecked cartridge. However, the shoulder is so slight that I suspect the internal ballistics will more closely resemble a straight-walled cartridge.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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carpediem4570
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Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: Tatume]
      #177316 - 18/03/11 02:08 AM

Tatume and Daryl S:

Thanks for the info. I think I will check around and see if the other die companies have the same tolerances as RCBS. I would like to find somthing that works the brass a little less than what I have now.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

Edited by carpediem4570 (18/03/11 02:09 AM)

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: Tatume]
      #177318 - 18/03/11 02:13 AM

Granted, the shoulder is slight & the shoulder's angle is but 5 degrees, 29 minutes.

One problem with overly sized-down necks being pulled out to a larger size, is the differences in neck wall thickness & therefore varying strength around the neck, causes the necks to be pulled crooked, resulting in crooked ammo once loaded.

Within oversizing, are a multitude of faults.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sparky
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Reged: 02/03/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: DarylS]
      #177334 - 18/03/11 12:42 PM

My 405 Win dies may have this issue also. I set my dies to just touch the shoulder on bottle neck cases and on the straight rimed case I set the sizer die so a fired case droped into the chamber freely, not touching the chamber wall. A .414 bullet in the case drags a little when droped into the chamber, so I use .413 bullets for the .4125 groove barrel. Back the sizeing die 5 turns off the shell holder to size my cases. My Grandsons have this rifle in Oregon to hunt this fall, when sizing cases to my suggestion, they back the die completely out of a RCBS Jr press I bought in 1964. I had them set the die 3 turns into the press and go with that.
Carpedien, I would guess if I had my dies here to check I may have a the same condictions as you. I am shooting lead bullets so made an expander plug .4115 to get about .001 under size for case mouth. That is how I try not to over work my brass.
Sparky

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
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Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: carpediem4570]
      #177474 - 20/03/11 10:37 PM

I'm confused. This appears to be two separate threads now. What happened?

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
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Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: Tatume]
      #177482 - 21/03/11 03:22 AM

Quote:

I'm confused. This appears to be two separate threads now. What happened?



Ah ha! Now I see; it is.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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Sparky
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Reged: 02/03/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: Tatume]
      #177490 - 21/03/11 08:31 AM

Sorry, didn't mean to hi jack the thread. I thought Carpedien's dies were over working his brass like my 405 Win dies did my brass. Wonder if the die companies make dies small to work in any chamber? Didn't mean to be a problem.
Sparky

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DennisDaigger
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Reged: 27/01/11
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Loc: Alaska
Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: carpediem4570]
      #177491 - 21/03/11 09:08 AM

Here you go Carpediem--

.3675 I.D. after firing prior to any sizing
.3575 I.D. after sizing with expander ball removed
.3620 I.D. after sizing with expander ball installed

As stated in previous post my expander ball is .3635 so there is .0015" of spring back as the neck passes over the expander ball.

For your reference the neck thickness of the test case used above is .011". The thicker the neck the smaller will be the neck I.D. after resizing with the expander ball removed. Normally we don't resize w/o an expander ball in place so we would never know that there is a significant step down in neck diameter before pulling it over the expander ball in the normal FL resize with decapping and neck expansion operation.

For example: If your brass's neck diameter was .013" and went through my size die with the expander ball removed the I.D. coming out would be .004" smaller than my case or .3535.

I think all these dimensions are fine and have never had a split neck nor do I get inordinate case elongation. I believe the best indicator of overworking the metal of the case neck is splitting and considerable elongation. Both of these conditions can be exaggerated by poor neck lubrication.

Hope this is helpful.
Dennis

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DennisDaigger
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Reged: 27/01/11
Posts: 47
Loc: Alaska
Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: DennisDaigger]
      #177499 - 21/03/11 01:19 PM

After the last post, I got curious about other 9.3x74 brass I had on hand and here is some additional info:
.012" neck thickness RWS brass
.013" neck thickness Hornady brass

If you increase the expander ball diameter to accommodate the Lee equipment you might reduce your bullet neck tension too much for best hunting performance. I doubt two thousandths of an inch under for neck I.D. is optimal for .366 bullets
and maybe not adequate with Norma .365 bullets. If your original expander ball is .3645 and your rebound is .0015 as mine was then you will have .002 or .003 for neck tension depending on the bullet used.

I'm guessing your .362" of neck I.D. coming out of the FL size die using the original expander ball is just about optimal for the cartridge. I shoot Norma, Hornady, Speer and A-Square bullets in three rifles and the die producing .362 I.D. has worked well for all.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: DennisDaigger]
      #177542 - 22/03/11 11:08 PM

Dennis - your 9.3x74 seems to have a very snug chamber neck with is nice and conductive to accuracy. I would keep an eye on neck wall thickness though - or stick to the .011" brass. As-is, it appears Hornady brass might be a bit snug, which can boost pressures. You know this, however others might not, which is why I mentioned it.

Of course, as brass is fired, it work-hardens. Work hardened brass is why we get neck splits - which is caused either by firing, then sizing, loading and firing, or by over-working the brass with undersized dies. Properly annealed brass can be blown out or expanded with a plunger straight, ie: .35cal to .50 cal., without cracking. It was how I made my .50/70 brass out of .348 brass. Hardened brass, on the other hand, will split every time.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: A Question for Reloaders of 9.3x74R [Re: DarylS]
      #177589 - 24/03/11 03:03 AM

Wow:

Thanks guys for all the great info and advice.

I think I will stick with the dies as-is for now and keep my eyes open for another set of 9.3 dies by another maker.


Kindest regards,

carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

Edited by carpediem4570 (24/03/11 03:04 AM)

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