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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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vegard_dino
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Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What?
#174848 - 05/02/11 03:01 AM

Hello

Muzzleloaders, flintlocks, they look great and fir sure have a lot of charm to me.
So do hunting with them.
But, how is a flintlock rifle to live with? What to start with?

I am a shooter and hunter, so far I have "only" been shooting modern guns. Missing a lot say my friend.
So, maybe it is time to try out the world I am missing out.....

So, first, is it hard to use a flintlock gun? What do I need to start with? Can I start with a flintlock, that is also one I can do some hunting with? Or, better to start with a "range, target" only model?

Have had a lock here and boy, some great flintlocks are made.

Thanks for looking

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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beleg2
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: vegard_dino]
#174870 - 05/02/11 07:56 AM

Hi,
Muzzleloading opens a wonderful world for shoters and hunters.
I have learn a lot from others members here and in other forums but never shot flintlocks.
I think a caplock is easier fro the beginer.
Thanks
Martin

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Tom_H
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: beleg2]
#174882 - 05/02/11 10:07 AM

Vegard Dino

Each has its points. Given the choice, I doubt that you will have much more of a problem with a flintlock than a caplock. It also isn't possible to forget the caps at home.

I have hunted with both and have only been successful with the flint.
On the other hand, the caplock is the only one that I've ever won money with.

I find that the flint can go off just as quickly as the cap but the cap is more consistant (when it goes off.) Just be careful when shooting with someone on the same side as the flintlock. It can create an unpleasant situation. They spit.

Flintlocks really are just a black powder only situation, while caplocks tend to work well with most any of the alternatives as well.

I think that you should buy one of each.

Easiest approach? If the supplies are available, either a flint or a caplock with a hooked breech so that it's easy to remove the barrel for cleaning and go from there. Once you get the cleaning down, the whole process becomes far more simplified.

As Martin said, this board is a wealth of information and I am sure that many will respond with more comprehensive answers than mine.

Best of luck with your decision.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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tinker
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: Tom_H]
#174893 - 05/02/11 02:45 PM

Go Flint!!

Vegard, there is no challenging your enthusiasm.
It's obvious that you love the guns and that you love shooting.
The flint lock rifle demands a little more from you, but the rewards are huge!

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: vegard_dino]
#174931 - 06/02/11 12:35 AM

Vegard_Dino,

As a new muzzleloader shooter and hunter, I can tell you that you're about to get into a dangerously addictive hobby. If you have any doubts, run away, for once you are in, it is like the Hotel California - you can check out any time you like but you can never leave . . .

I started with an inline

and once I got the hang of it, it was easy to go to more traditional guns. That said, I'm still learning and am always grateful to the experienced members here - there are loads of great posts here which you can look up. And, the muzzleloading fraternity is even friendlier than the general hunting fraternity (yes, that IS possible and it is something that you have to experience to believe.)

Welcome to the madness!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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vegard_dino
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: tinker]
#174936 - 06/02/11 03:34 AM

Thanks all.

Well, it started a few days a go, I was buying a old cape gun( my first BP gun), the dealer showed me a original German flintlock in the Blunderbuss style. Oh, my what a great gun!

The feel, the style, the quality, it all made me smile....and smile. Looking down the barrel, made me think of thick forest, stalking wild boar. Oh, these I have to try.

These has to be the ultimate hunting guns, as basic as it gets.
So, yes, the proses on getting on has started. The ultimate has to use a original one, but they are to "old" for that.
A modern made one, in the German style, Blunderbuss is what I like. Having only seen a few flintlocks I am bold in saying so, but they look so cool

However, how are the barrel and accuracy on a Blunderbuss?
When looking around for a flintlock, any tip on what to look for?

All I know is, I have to try these out. I will do as you say tinker, and go flint!

Have a good weekend all

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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DarylS
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: vegard_dino]
#174938 - 06/02/11 04:46 AM

While we have a black powder forum here at nitroexpress, you will get a wider and more knowledgable base of help from dedicated black powder sites. An 'inline' black powder site will not give you the help you need to get started with antique or replica antique caplock or flintlock black powder firearms.

I personally like www.americanlongrifles.com - while others prefer other sites. The very best North American Longrifle and muzzleloading gun makers frequent that site & can give excellent advice on all aspects of shooting cap locks and flint guns alike, as well as wheellocks, and/etc. Some even shoot hand gonnes - matchlock pistols of the late(I think) 14th century.

At nitro express, the caplock shooters are actually outnumbered by flintlock shooters just as they are at the range I shoot at here in BC. What better place to obtain help, than from a place where most everyone shoots what you want to & have been for decades.

At ALR, the primary focus in on American guns, but I shoot and prefer English patterns and European military guns myself, yet am welcome there. I also shoot flintlock longrifles and squirrel rifles.

Many on that site started shooting black powder guns - originals and production, in the 60's and early 70's, so there is a huge source of experience to draw from. Again, a goodly number incudlign myself have been involved in Ml and BP ctg. gun competition for more than 30 years.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: DarylS]
#174942 - 06/02/11 05:53 AM

I must agree with Tinker on the rewards. Beating the cap shooters with a flint rifle - or shotgun on birds, is a VERY special - FUN reward. It gets even better with the telling, of course.

As to accuracy in a blunderbus, ie: short barreled, sometimes only 18", in large calibres - usually .730" to .770", ie: 12 to 10 bore, sometiems larger yet, with an enlarging muzzle to aid loading on horseback, in a moving carriage or pitching ship's rigging, barrels smooth, no rifling, no sights, except for perhaps a bead of blade raised on the 'bell? Acuracy is non-existant. These guns are best with multiple projectiles and were not meant to use a single ball. A 'small' handful of .45 lead balls, ie: 1/2 dozen, more if smaller, would destroy a bad guys day, if he were the recipient. Blunderbus' today, are a FUN gun. In utility, not not any particular use - probably, but FUN to play with.

Then we come to flint shotguns, rifles and handguns - that's were better accuracy at longer ranges use comes from. Many of us shoot flint smoothbores, with a solid ball on our trail walk. It is very gratifying to consistantly strike a 12" diameter steel plate at 100 yards, offhand, with a rifle, let alone a smoothbore. We've several shooters who do this - with .54 cal. to 12 bore smoothbores
with solid ball and rifles from .32 to .69 in calibre.

If an original antique gun, this blunderbus may or may not be safe to shoot.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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vegard_dino
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: DarylS]
#174951 - 06/02/11 07:00 AM

Hi and thanks for the reply Daryl_S

Well, you have told me what I was just about to ask, about the barrels that are opening towards the muzzle.

Know I know. Thanks.
So, the Blunderbuss is just good looking fun....OK. But, not what I want to start with.

Had a trip to a old friend today, he has two original flintlocks, one french and one austrian. Some great guns they made back then. He told me more about flintlocks, showing me some photos and a book about them, showing guns with set triggers, waterproof pans, adjustable sights, take down rifles, folding stocks and so one. Here I was, thinking the muzzleloader was just a smooth barreled gun......

So, yes, I like the short barreled bad boy look on the Blunderbuss, but it is not a hunting rifle. So, I like to find a German style Jaeger flintlock, rifled barrel and try out the muzzleloading world. It sure sounds interesting, and as I was told, all game have been taken with a flintlock, so it WILL work today to.

Oh, one thing, my friend told me that he had read something about flint and FLINT. Saying that flint of superior quality was for sale back in the flintlock time, making sure the gun will fire. Or, just a trick from a sales man with a good idea?

Will a flintlock now and then missfire, no mater if you have "super" flint or a waterproof pan?
So, caliber, here in europe we talk about mm, is a 10-12 mm flintlock rifle one to hunt with, take it out for wild boar?

And yes, I stay away from shooting a original flintlock, better to keep it as a decoration. They sure look good

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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Tom_H
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Loc: Southeast, NY

Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: vegard_dino]
#174957 - 06/02/11 08:02 AM

I think that a Jeager rifle is a great choice.
Back when I thought that the caplock rifle was the only sensible b.p. rifle, I decided that if I was going to have something as useless as a flint, it would be because I put it together. With a nod toward my Germanic heritige(1/4), I picked a jeager.
I haven't bothered picking up a caplock since I started hunting with it.
THAT is the bad boy of hunting rifles.
A 15-18mm rifle would be perfect for practically any forest game on four feet, most certainly boar and stag. The one I built is 58, but if I did it again I may go 20ga or larger after the reports of others on the board.
There are techniques that will make that rifle more dependible than not.

I have never really had a problem with flints in general(could just be luck), but the angle that it is knapped and the heat treatment of the frizzen are very important to a good spark. I use a piece of sheet lead to hold the flint into the hammer.
Keeping the flash hole clear and the priming powder to the outside of the pan make a huge difference as well.

Once again, I am sure that others can fill in details and gaps to the techniques especially when the weather doesn't cooperate.

Cheers

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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vegard_dino
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: Tom_H]
#174958 - 06/02/11 08:28 AM

Tom_H, thanks for the information.

A 15-18 mm caliber, what is that in gauge? Your .58 is what is that in mm/gauge?
What have you hunted with it?

What I do know now is: I seek a a Jaeger style rifle, rifled barrel, good sights, full stock and set triggers.
On the old rifles I se that they have some kind of a "door" on the butt end on the stock. What is that for?

Thanks for helping me

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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Tom_H
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: vegard_dino]
#174963 - 06/02/11 08:59 AM

I wish that I had a metric rule handy.
.58 is around 15mm or just below 20 gauge. 20 or 16 bore could be ideal.

The patch box in the stock is just for that: Patches, and extra flint, etc. Nice for looks but not terribly practical.

I have shot one boar, around 90kg ( I had to shoot a boar, its a jeager rifle

) and a number of deer.

A rifle in the 11mm range may be light for some things, as a round ball is not very heavy for its diameter. The larger bore rifles are probably a wiser choice.

I was originally going to install set triggers, but the lock was of good quality and I decided that it wasn't necessary.

At least one folding sight is useful. One for 80m and another for a longer range would work well. That being said, I've only had to use it once.

They do look like they belong in the woods...

Tom

Edited by CptCurl (04/07/11 10:30 PM)

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vegard_dino
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: Tom_H]
#174965 - 06/02/11 09:42 AM

Oh, what a nice rifle

Who made it?
Ok, then I better go with something like a 16-20 bored rifle. Better to be on the right side, when stalking in on the boar.
Your rifle looks very much like what I have in mind.

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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Tom_H
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: vegard_dino]
#175008 - 07/02/11 01:38 AM

Thank you.
I built it from available parts and a stock blank. Mostly wood work and a minimum of metal work.
It should be correct for a rifle from the 1750's.
I visited a number of museums, taking photos of a variety of guns from that era to come up with this one.

Getting the measurements correct was interesting and the gun continues to be a work in progress. Each year I add something new to it - mostly to cover up mistakes from when I didn't know better.
The barrel is around 70cm, and it weighs around 3.5kg.

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

Edited by Tom_H (07/02/11 01:39 AM)

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vegard_dino
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: Tom_H]
#175011 - 07/02/11 01:56 AM

Nice. I am sure you had a good time, making it, adding things, shooting and testing out things.
Me, afraid I need help from a professional.

Thanks for sharing Tom

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: vegard_dino]
#175623 - 16/02/11 01:24 PM

Vegard_Dino,

In Scandinavia you have a legend in building muzzleloaders - Magnus Wiberg in Sweden. In Germany there is Helmut Mohr and there are several others who build target muzzleloading guns. Of course you should be able to find the various Italian and Spanish factory made guns easily - all of these are very nice and are extremely inexpensive compared to the high grade custom stuff. If you want to get a custom gun made over here, we have Steve Zihn on our own forums building some fantastic guns and his clients even come to the USA from Europe to commission guns with him. There are many choices and you can go as inexpensive or as expensive as you want to.

Best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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vegard_dino
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: mehulkamdar]
#175765 - 19/02/11 02:36 AM

Thanks for the help.

Oh, some nice makers and some great looking Guns.

Will contact them and find out what they make and so one.

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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szihn
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: vegard_dino]
#182938 - 01/06/11 02:37 AM

Vegard, I make muzzleloaders for a living. If you'd like to correspond, I believe I can give you some good advice and steer you in the right direction.
Write to me at szihn@wyoming.com if you'd like.
Steve

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DarylS
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Re: Muzzleloaders, how to start? Where? What? [Re: szihn]
#182957 - 01/06/11 09:32 AM

This is my 20 bore, smoothbore flinter. I've not hunted with it yet, but have competed with it in both clay bird shooting with shot and with patched round balls on a rifle course of fire. Hi was made by a fellow identified as A. Hunkeler but that is all the information I have. It has an improved cylinder choke, with does not effect accuacy with the round balls, but sure makes nice patterns with shot.

This Picture has been on here a nubmer of times, and is my 14 bore English-syle Sporting Rifle. It has polaxed a couple moose for me during the late season special weapons hunt up North of here, when it was between -30 and -56 Celcius measurement.

This is an original H. Whall ball and shot gun of 11 bore. I used this piece for a round ball event at a 10 day rendezvous South of here in BC and placed 2nd with it, hitting 17 targets out of 22. It is suitable for most what Africa has to offer, within it's accuracy range with the 525gr. hardened round ball I used (.715").

This is a picture of Taylor, my brother, like Steve, an ackomplished rifle maker. The rifle he's holding, is a tribute to Jacob Kuntz - then of LehighValley, Pennsylvania. It is a compilation of 2 similar Kuntz rifles in the Museum of Natural Art in New York City. It won a couple ribbons at Dixon's Gun Maker's fair, where this picture was taken.
It is a smallish 73 Bore Rifle ie: 73 balls to the pound bore size which is .40 cal. It shoots a ball that is 75 bore in size which is .395". Notice how fine and slim this rifle is in comparrison to heavy game rifles and smoothbores.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (04/07/11 10:31 PM)

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