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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark

Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: bwanabobftw]
#186130 - 20/07/11 04:56 AM

I just spoked to Paul Roberts of London here today regarding my own S&B gun. He only knew of a very very few paradox guns that actually shot well. Most them he have had his hands on to, wheren`t accurate at all. He knew only of one paradoxgun for sure that shot well, which belonged to an American, who had experimented a lot, to get it to a useful shooting. He had been at the Lancasters here today, and had spoked with them regarding the ovalbored guns..most guns with oval bore lost accuracy after a few hundred shots or sometimes even less.

What I see here on this thread here looks very promising.

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Tom_H
.333 member

Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY

Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
#186132 - 20/07/11 05:46 AM

That is accurate.

I could understand being happy about that. Being from the east coast, I doubt that you would be undergunned very often with the woods ranges that we have to deal with here.

Fantastic

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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CommandCar
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA

Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
#186233 - 21/07/11 08:40 AM

Quote:

I just spoked to Paul Roberts of London here today regarding my own S&B gun. He only knew of a very very few paradox guns that actually shot well. Most them he have had his hands on to, wheren`t accurate at all. He knew only of one paradoxgun for sure that shot well, which belonged to an American, who had experimented a lot, to get it to a useful shooting. He had been at the Lancasters here today, and had spoked with them regarding the ovalbored guns..most guns with oval bore lost accuracy after a few hundred shots or sometimes even less.

What I see here on this thread here looks very promising.

I can see where that statement comes from. There are just so many variables it is tough to get the right load combination. The variables are powder, charge, wadding, cases, primers, and bullet weight, alloy, shape, and diameter. Don't forget condition of the gun too.

I just checked my notes and counted 80 different loads that were tested (the average was 6 rounds per combination = alot of shooting and testing). More than a few produced OK groups at 50 yards, but when fired at 100, they would not "group", in fact, they often would not show up on the target! I stopped at the first load that would stay in a 6" bull at 100 yards. That was my requirement, because Evans is a respected maker, so I figured if it had a 100 yard leaf, it must have been accurate @ 100 yards.

If you approach the B&S challenge with the realization that the whole system (paradox) is some sort of compromise when compared to either a game gun or double rifle you will be ready for the challange. I can hardly speculate why a certain slug/wad/alloy/case/primer/powder/diameter works. It must be some sort of Voodoo. Here are my notes for the winning load combination (I am only changing the charge of Blue Dot @100yrds):

Blue Dot:

36 grains - 1,125 fps, Pizza pie size groups......

35 grains - 1,090 fps, Hubcap size groups

34 grains - 1,070 fps, Winner!

Normal reloaders are talking about getting from 1.25" groups to MOA or subMOA groups. Here, if you are off by a grain, you are done and might pass on a really close load. It is just crazy.

If you have a regular Holland (BP or 24-30 grain cordite) follow Sherman Bell's loading methods in DGJ and let me know if it is that easy.

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark

Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
#186316 - 22/07/11 06:08 PM

Hello CC.

The S&B gun I have doesn`t even stabilize the ball..it shoots all over the place.

MIne isn`t a H&H with ratchet rifling like H&H, but an ovalbore or "hairrifling" as Paul said.

The H&H standard paradox ammo fit well enough down through the barrels to become squezzed just before the muzzle.
Here the barrelflats:

According to the proof-act th barrels should be marked "S&B" or a "C" if the barrels are choked, but neither is there?.

The barrels are VERY oval indeed, and the squezzes down 2,5" before the muzzle but still remains oval to the muzzle. Been measuring the muzzle with a 3 dot laser the ovalness takes a spin before the muzzle.

The gun weighs almost 8,5Ibs which suggest a heavyload ballgun, but if it isn`t why would anybody make a ovalbored gun to roundballs?.
If this gun lets say were made for roundballs, the expresssight for 100yards is very optimistic, as most guns made for roundballs often were set for 50-60 yards.
I can see this gun has been reproofed for 70mm shells, however there is a mark which I don`t understand where is says "SD"?. Any body knows what that means?.

Edited by CptCurl (23/07/11 11:12 AM)

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
#186351 - 23/07/11 06:01 AM

RM

That a gun could come off regulation in as little as 100 rounds defies logic. Particularly if you are shooting lead bullets Try shooting your oval bore gun with a paradox conical slightly undersized to the bore and paper patch it for contact. I think getting the right fit will be the key.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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CommandCar
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA

Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
#186353 - 23/07/11 07:13 AM

RM,

My Evans did not group either. That's the Voodoo. I've read that some B&S guns behave like normal double ball rifles. Mine did not. It never worked, until it did.

You should start with Sherman Bell's loading methodology and a 740ish grain Fosbery slug. As for diameter, not sure, but I'd guess you would take the long diameter of the oval plus the short diameter of the oval and divide by 2. Then use bullets of this diameter to .003" under. I'm guessing here, maybe someone knows how to calculate bullet diameter for oval bore rifles? RS figured out which diameter to use in his Colindian, but left it out of the article in the DGJ. He obviously wants to keep these things cheap.

I doubt you have a RB gun. Everyone was competing with the Paradox, which used an elongated slug.

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark

Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
#186385 - 23/07/11 05:14 PM

THanks Gatsby and CC for sharing. I`LL work up some castbullets of subdiameter. I too feel very confident that this gun was made to shoot conicals for sure. Everything indicate this.

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