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HuviusModerator
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Fraser Mystery
      #171473 - 15/11/10 03:41 PM

This is the newest addition to the collection - yes, another step back on the Holland & Holland Royal savings plan - but a worthy diversion surely.
I have wanted a Fraser for a while - who hasn't, right - and knowing how rarely they come up I was happy to be able to get it.
In detail, there are many of the classic Fraser cues short of deluxe engraving.
First thing I noticed is the top tang safety which is a desireable feature of the later Fraser falling blocks. Interestingly, this is a low serial number gun - much lower than any other top tang safety model listed in Kirton's book.
It's numbers match on the action, trigger guard and barrel. It is marked 360EX on the barrel.
When I bought it, I thought nothing wrong with the old 360 black powder express. Fun round anyway and more powerful than you would expect. In looking at the seller's pictures, I thought the rim cutout looked a bit wide, but not having anything for reference I didn't think much of it.

Now to the in-hand inspection.
Overall, looks to be a well preserved original gun. Nothing obviously goofy. Nice bore. Folding sights to 500yds. Original butt plate too. Feels great!
Then my eye goes to the top tang. Interestingly, the border engraving on the tang is a bit more ornate than the border on the action which is a simple chain of pierced squares. The tang has a woven border. The trigger guard also has a woven border but is integral with the lower part of the action - which again has the simple pierced square border.
The chambering was obviously not for the standard 360 2-1/4 BPE with the rim recess measuring at roughly .525". A 9.3X74mm shell will not chamber all the way but the rim fits nicely in reverse. Using a probe, the lands start at about 2-3/4" and there is a slight neck to the chamber. A chamber cast and bore slugging will be coming soon but it looks as though it could be a variant of the 400/360. I understand this can be made from 9.3X74mm by shortnening the brass.
In the light of my dining room, which admittedly is not the best for this kind of thing, there was nothing any more unusual than that to report.
Now, out to the sunlight and...there clear as day is a fill area in place of the early type safety which resides in the trigger guard just ahead of the trigger. Obviously a very professional job.

The question is, is it known whether Fraser had converted any earlier rifles to the top tang safety later on?
And, assuming this explains the existence of and the different border on the tang, would Fraser also rechamber the rifle to the later 400/360 at the owner's request?
Was there ever a BP version of the 400/360?
Did Fraser mark his falling blocks with the charge and bullet weight?
Would the BP 360 be sighted to 500yds?
I notice that some 303's have the same proofmarks as my gun with, of course, 303 instead of 360EX.
Without documentation, this may be one of those unknowns of gun history. But what a mystery to ponder...













Edited by CptCurl (19/11/10 11:33 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: Huvius]
      #171489 - 15/11/10 10:50 PM

A fascinating little rifle. Thanks for sharing. I only wish your photos were larger!

Curl

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Anonymous
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: CptCurl]
      #171520 - 16/11/10 12:16 PM

You need to post much larger photos. As to your questions:

1. The top safety is part of the design to his 1880 single shot, each and every one had this feature standard.

2. It is possible that Fraser would rechamber, though more likely he would just rebarrel. I don’t think this would be the case either way on your gun.

3. There is a BP 360 express its a 2-3/4” round made about 1873, made with many different variations from 71 to 215 grains. The 2-1/4” was the most common however there was also a legnth of 2-7/16” loaded as a favorite of Alex Henry who was Fraser’s brother in guns. You need to make a casting of the chamber to really understand what you have. If this is a 400/360 it stands to reason its a Fraser 400/360.

4. Fraser did not mark his barrels on the top with charge or bullet weight, part of that information would be under the forend and would be stamped in.

5. The 500yd sights were standard on guns larger than 350 bore, and does not mean the gun was sighted for 500yds.

6. The proofmarks would be the same for the era, not per calibre. Unless marked as such by charge such as nitro or BP.


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: ]
      #171527 - 16/11/10 01:52 PM

I changed the pictures but for the life of me cannot figure out how to make them bigger!
If I resize them in photobucket, they loose their clarity and look terrible.
If Curl can resize them and keep them sharp, that would be great!

By the rim/base diameter, I would rule out the 360 2-3/4", 2-1/4" and the 2-7/16"
I have ordered more cerrosafe so I can take a cast this weekend.

If Fraser rebarreled it, they stamped it with the same number as the action. That is the origin of my question about the existance of a BP cartridge of similar dimensions to the 400/360 because this barrel isn't nitro proofed.

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kamilaroi
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: Huvius]
      #171529 - 16/11/10 02:37 PM

FWIW your reference to a "woven border" is usually known as "Celtic Twist" or Celtic Rope by engravers. It's hard to do with any reliability and one of the hallmarks of really accurate work.

Edited by kamilaroi (16/11/10 02:39 PM)


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: kamilaroi]
      #171686 - 19/11/10 03:46 PM

I made a chamber cast and cast of the bore at the muzzle end.
The chamber measures out at 2.75" with a slight shoulder, and the rifling grooves measure out at .369"
The rim is roughly .050" which is close to the Purdey version of the 400/360.
The 400/360 Purdey also had a bit greater diameter bullet - .367" from what I have read.

Maybe a sweet nitro for black, duplex or black powder load would be what is needed to get her up and running again.





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Edited by CptCurl (19/11/10 11:34 PM)


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: Huvius]
      #171695 - 19/11/10 08:51 PM

According to Hoyem (2nd Ed.,p125), "Fraser's version had a 40gr load and a 289gr bullet, and the rim of the Purdey" [.045"-.050"]. It is listed as a .400/.360 NE, 2-3/4" though...
Fleming gives the same load and specifies cordite. Neither give a bullet diameter though.

Edited by JabaliHunter (19/11/10 08:56 PM)


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kuduae
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: Huvius]
      #171723 - 20/11/10 09:06 AM

Quote:

If Fraser rebarreled it, they stamped it with the same number as the action. That is the origin of my question about the existance of a BP cartridge of similar dimensions to the 400/360 because this barrel isn't nitro proofed.



Afaik the markings for Nitro proof were introduced by the British proofhouses in 1904, several years after NE cartridges came into use. So any gun using Nitro Express cartridges made up to that year will show only the old black powder marks, though it is intended for cordite.

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TH44
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: kuduae]
      #171731 - 20/11/10 10:03 AM

Kuduae

A very interesting point about the proof marks, my Gibbs Farquharson was rebarrelled (or re- bored?) to .500 Express by W. Jeffrey in the 1890s, I believe. It certainly looks strong enough and looks similar to Nitro express rifles to have been made for the nitro cartridge, despite having BP proof marks.

I think I would still use BP just in case!

TH44

Edited by TH44 (20/11/10 10:12 AM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: TH44]
      #171738 - 20/11/10 11:46 AM

Quote:

Afaik the markings for Nitro proof were introduced by the British proofhouses in 1904, several years after NE cartridges came into use. So any gun using Nitro Express cartridges made up to that year will show only the old black powder marks, though it is intended for cordite.




That's not correct. The British rules of proof of 1887 and the later rules of 1896 both provided for methods of proof and markings for nitro proof.

As an example, here's a photo of my 1901 Westley Richards .303 clearly showing nitro proof:








For a discussion of this, please refer to Gerhard Wirnsberger, The Standard Directory of Proof Marks at page 103, and also to Nigel Brown, British Gunmakers, Vol. 1, at pages 265-266.

Curl

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470evans
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: CptCurl]
      #171770 - 21/11/10 12:13 AM

As Curl showed correctly, a pre 1904 nitro prooved gun will show as such. The 303s were marked differently than other calibers. My 1901 Jeffery 450/400 is marked "55grs Cordite 400gr bullet max'm" and my 1902 Evans 400/360 was marked "40grs Cordite 300 gr bullet max'm". What's missing is the "sceptre over NP" that came about in 1904.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: 470evans]
      #171781 - 21/11/10 02:45 AM

Right. The .303 rifles were handled differently, and not always consistently. For instance, I recently bought a Purdey .303 completed in 1897 that is marked "46.3 grains Rifleite" which is another standard pre-1904 .303 nitro proof.

Under the rules of 1904 the Birmingham Proof House discontinued the use of the two marks shown on my .303 Westley:



The mark used from 1904 to 1954 is this one:



Here's a full shot of the flats of my Webley & Scott .303 that dates to 1937-38 (reflecting the rules of 1925):





With the rules of 1954 Birmingham began using the "Crown over BNP" mark that is still in use today.

But I suppose we have gone far afield from the topic at hand, which is Huvius' spectacular Fraser single shot. Sorry for the digression.

Curl

edit:

P.S. I think the mark 470Evans referred to is called the "Scimitar over NP" (used by London Proof House only):






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Edited by CptCurl (21/11/10 02:53 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: CptCurl]
      #171913 - 23/11/10 09:21 AM

All I wrote is: before 1904 a "Nitro"marking on a rifle that was proofed for nitro cartridges was not necessary in every case. FI my 1899 vintage London proofed Gibbs Mannlicher is not marked "nitro" or "cordite" either. It simply was not necessary! Other than many other British cartridges, including the .303, there never was a blackpowder factory load in the 6.5x53R aka .256 Gibbs Rimmed case. So it was completely unnecessary to apply such a mark, as it was impossible to have a rifle so chambered only proofed for a blackpowder factory load. The same applies to the .400-360 cases.
BTW, original commercial Oberndorf Mauser rifles of pre-WW1 days are also lacking both the crown/G (rifled)and the crown/N (Nitro) stamps. Simply there were no M98 sporting rifles not rifled or not made for smokeless loads.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: kuduae]
      #171915 - 23/11/10 09:47 AM

Kuduae, you have demonstrated your knowledge countless times here on NE.com. I would be reluctant to dispute anything you say.

I do believe in the case at hand - Huvius' Fraser single shot, that if it had been rebarreled or rechambered to a nitro round there would be some indication of this, either by stating the charge and type of powder, or otherwise. However, one thing is certain: as soon as I think I'm sure of something it proves to be wrong.



Quote:

BTW, original commercial Oberndorf Mauser rifles of pre-WW1 days are also lacking both the crown/G (rifled)and the crown/N (Nitro) stamps. Simply there were no M98 sporting rifles not rifled or not made for smokeless loads.




On that theory I wonder why commercial Luger pistols display the "B U G" proofs pre-1912 and the "Crown over N" proof after? The same logic should apply. I ask this out of pure curiosity and not in an effort to discredit your statement.

Curl

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kuduae
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: CptCurl]
      #171975 - 24/11/10 07:53 AM

Quote:


On that theory I wonder why commercial Luger pistols display the "B U G" proofs pre-1912 and the "Crown over N" proof after? The same logic should apply. I ask this out of pure curiosity and not in an effort to discredit your statement.

Curl



According to the 1891 German proof law, which came into full force April 1, 1893, these few proofhouses were established at first: Amberg in Bavaria; Frankfurt on Oder river, after a few years moved to Spandau; Oberndorf a.N.; Mehlis and Suhl. Though Mehlis (Zella-Mehlis after 1920) and Suhl are only about 5 miles apart, they were rivalling gunmaking centers in different German states. Though all these proofhouses used essentially the same marks, they often applied them differently. For instance, it is most often quite easy to distinguish Suhl and Mehlis proofs. Pre-1918 commercial Lugers were all made by DWM in Berlin, so they were proofed by the Spandau proofhouse. Commercial Mausers were of course proofed in Oberndorf. According to JON SPEED: Mauser - Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles the consecutively numbered M98 sporters up to about 1924 and serial #87000 have only the BU marks. From then to about 1932 and #111000 they show BUG, then to 1940 BUGN. 1940 to 45 they got the new eagle/N proofs.


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Anonymous
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: kuduae]
      #175303 - 11/02/11 07:15 AM

Have you shot this little gem yet?

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500Nitro
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: ]
      #175305 - 11/02/11 07:30 AM


Very nice.

I have always liked Fraser's.


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: ]
      #175355 - 12/02/11 01:30 AM

Haven't shot it yet.
Got brass though - all I need is dies now.

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Anonymous
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: Huvius]
      #175368 - 12/02/11 06:25 AM

Quote:

Haven't shot it yet.
Got brass though - all I need is dies now.




Arguably one of the finest made guns, ever IMHO. I just wish there were more floating around to buy up.


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Russ_Gould
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Re: Fraser Mystery [Re: generalwar]
      #191405 - 06/10/11 05:04 PM

I have a double with a very similar ctg cast, the proof is 40gr cordite 300 gr bullet, marked .360, although it mikes very close to .370 like yours. So I think we can conclude that it is a 400/360 Fraser 2 3/4" NE with a bullet of 300 grains, .369 or .370 dia.

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