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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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underlever
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Reged: 01/02/07
Posts: 164
Loc: N.S.W Australia
fixing pitted chamber
      #171203 - 09/11/10 07:28 PM

G'day fellas,
just wondering if anyone has used one of the modern "loctite" type products to fill a pit in a BPE chamber?
I have the option to buy a very early Alex. Henry rifle [see Henry mystery, in double rifles ] which now that I have it in my grasp turns out to be a 500-450 3 1/4" BPE. It is a tired old double that has really been through some hard times but the bores are good and will refurbish to a great rifle. The main problem is a pit that runs around the neck area of the right chamber about 180 degrees and may affect extraction . Any ideas??

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: underlever]
      #171226 - 10/11/10 03:14 AM

You can have that thing x-rayed, I've done it to numerous barrel sets.
It's important to know how far the affect of that pitting goes into the barrel steel.

I haven't tried loctite for this.
Look at your load pressures, then look at the PSI specs of the filler materials you're considering.



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: underlever]
      #171227 - 10/11/10 03:23 AM

Can you measure the depth of the pit? Pretty had to do. running around, usually means it's following a weld in the damascus - which can lead to a catostrophic failure. the 'rot' can run underneath the surface, following further than what's visual. I am not an expert on this. I have inspected many damascus barrels with similar defects and sectioned some as well. It is generally not very pretty and can be very bad as to continuous errosion and cracking. As to using an epoxy to 'fix' it, doubt it, but woth a try - maybe - can't say either way.

Since it's a rifle and the damage is on the neck of the chamber, going as oversize (reaming) as necessary in that area, then beafing up the brass (appropriate size tubing soldered into or onto the cases - then expanded and turned) to fit for bullet seating is probably what I'd end up doing, if it was mine and worth salvaging. Might try some form of epoxy first, though, just in case it worked.

In the reaming scenario, you'd have brass for left and right chambers - non interchangable.

In the epoxy scenario, you might have to re-do the epoxy often, or you could shoot mainly the left barrel, saving the right for an "if needed", second shot during hunting with the piece - probably the best thing to do anyway.

Of course, all of this depends on the severity of the material loss. Without more information, it's all guess-work.

I'd clean the hell out of it andonce it's shootable, shoot it to see how much they are sticking or if they are sticking. I'd not shoot it with the forend on it, if possible, until it was proven that the barrel wasn't going to blow apart at the neck. Does the crack run around onto the bottom of the chamber or is it the top 1/2 of the barrel?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: DarylS]
      #171234 - 10/11/10 06:09 AM

I like the X-ray idea, as well as careful examination with a borescope and maybe some photos.

Thinking there may be a person or two out there that could weld up the pit?

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: CommandCar]
      #171246 - 10/11/10 11:41 AM

sleeve the chambers.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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underlever
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Reged: 01/02/07
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Loc: N.S.W Australia
Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: DoubleD]
      #171257 - 10/11/10 08:29 PM

thanks all for your ideas. After thinking it through the most logical step is indeed to have the barrels x-rayed and then take it from there. At least I'll know then if its even worth worrying about fixing the chamber.
Thanks again,
Ron.

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DarylS
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: underlever]
      #171268 - 11/11/10 01:46 AM

DD's sleeving of both chambers and re-chambering is the best option/suggestion of all. That way, both chambers will be identical.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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underlever
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Loc: N.S.W Australia
Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: DarylS]
      #171315 - 11/11/10 08:58 PM

While I've got this thread going in regard to this rifle, can anyone give me an accurate date as to when the 500-450 3 1/4" BPE cartridge was introduced.

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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: underlever]
      #171321 - 11/11/10 10:34 PM

Hoyem says "The cartridge (.500/.450-3 1/4 Express) in coiled brass form most likely appeared in the 1870's. The powder charge was 140 grains of black. Nitro-for-black cartridges by Kynoch had a 52-grain smokeless powder charge and catalogs list a 365-grain metal-based bullet."

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DarylS
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: CommandCar]
      #171344 - 12/11/10 06:33 AM

CC - any note when it changed to a solid brass case? The coiled case would be only slightly later than the Martini's coiled .577/450. Seems to me by the end of the 70's, they'd switched to solid brass - or was it mid 80's?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
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Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: DarylS]
      #188354 - 23/08/11 08:55 AM


I had a .375 double in my shop that I think at one time had a stuck case in the right barrel. It seemed that the original onwer tried to get it out with a drill bet. The new owner of this rifle found out that a fired case only had a neck length of around .125" and a shoulder angle of about 35 degrees. I know how chambers can be sleved but did not want to try it since I have never done one.
After a phone call to David Trevelion, who recomened Ken Eversol I found the cure. He sleved the chamber and did a great repair. It was not cheep but well worth the price and the work was fantastic, you could not tell by eye that the gun had been worked on.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Ironscot
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Reged: 14/08/07
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: Judson]
      #192193 - 20/10/11 01:05 PM

In my line of work we use this product to replace metal which has been lost to cavitation. It's actually stronger than the steel around it. Might be just the ticket.

http://belzona.com/prod1k.aspx

Good luck!

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: DarylS]
      #192235 - 21/10/11 05:37 AM

Quote:

CC - any note when it changed to a solid brass case? The coiled case would be only slightly later than the Martini's coiled .577/450. Seems to me by the end of the 70's, they'd switched to solid brass - or was it mid 80's?



coiled brass was available for a long time. take a look into the 1902 eley price list:







I am in doubt that this was only old stock. coiled cases were cheaper than drawn brass, compare it for example with the drawn 577/450 case



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (25/11/11 10:21 PM)

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iomskp
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Reged: 10/11/08
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: lancaster]
      #192261 - 21/10/11 04:39 PM

I have a double rifle that had one damaged chamber I took the easy path and sent it to Alex Beer he sleeved and reamed it good as new.

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kamilaroi
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: Ironscot]
      #192265 - 21/10/11 08:01 PM

Quote:

In my line of work we use this product to replace metal which has been lost to cavitation. It's actually stronger than the steel around it. Might be just the ticket.

http://belzona.com/prod1k.aspx

Good luck!


looks like a variant of the old Devcon product line, no?

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CHAPUISARMES
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Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: iomskp]
      #192266 - 21/10/11 08:21 PM

Quote:

I have a double rifle that had one damaged chamber I took the easy path and sent it to Alex Beer he sleeved and reamed it good as new.



Your a wise man, if you have a problem and it can be fixed, Alex Beer in Tasmania is the man to do it.

I'm not biased MUCH, his number is 0400 474 507

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.

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underlever
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Loc: N.S.W Australia
Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #192267 - 21/10/11 08:41 PM

For those in the know, where exactly do you position the joint between chamber sleeve and barrel ? Its the location of the front of the sleeve that I'm after.

regards,

Ron.

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Ironscot
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: kamilaroi]
      #194094 - 19/11/11 06:25 AM

Actually it is similar to Devcon.

From what I've been told by the old hands they can patch the draft tube of a turbine with the Belzona then years later have to go in and expand the patch as the steel wears away around it. It's definitely machinable.

I believe the main difference in the grades are the particulate additives mixed in. At least that's the simplified answer.

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8borerifle
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Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Ohio,USA
Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: Ironscot]
      #194714 - 24/11/11 11:00 AM

How do you kill the rust in the pitting and clean to apply Belzona? How is the Belzona applied and do you then use a chamber reamer to clean the chamber up? I have a double rifle that has 2 pitted chambers, not pitted bad enough to cause extraction problems, but it looks bad. The rifle is a.577 BPE and I am also checking into sleeving the chambers and re-reaming. Thanks!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: 8borerifle]
      #194716 - 24/11/11 12:07 PM

I'd look into this Belzona very closely, even to asking the makers how much hoop-stress it will take and explain what you actually want to do with it. Tellignthem the pressures involved are around 30,000 to 35,000PSI, radially, might give them a better idea of what hoop stress there is.

It's machinability is important as after filling the pitts, the chambers will have to be re-cut with a chambering reamer.

It might be the best thing going for old chambers. I personally prefer the thought of having the pits successfully filled, rather than having a liner with in inner joint with silver brazing/solder inside available to pressure and fouling. An almost but not quite perfect joint might be a place for problems to start. An absoltuely perfect joint might be quite difficult.

Reamers are going to have to be purchased either way.

As to getting absltuyely ALL the BP fouling out, that should be accomplised each and every time the gun is cleaned, or they will continue to get deeper.

Water - cold, lots of it flushed up into the tubes, and back out with force - breeches in a bucket. Wet patches might work, but I'd have to see that done successfully - it would take a LOT of patching - flushing is the only way I've been able to get pits clean/clean/clean.

After clenaing some heat applied with dry them perfectly, but do not use really hot water as that will cause soft steels and iron to flash rust as it dries, then sucks moisture out of the air my opinon on why, but the flash rusting is real and is why H&H (THE British Firm) recommends or recommended cold water cleaning to my friend. I've been doing it that way ever since and have never rusted a bore. They've always come out spottlessly clean.

It has been my expierence that cold water cleaning seems to resist the hot water's flash rusting. Indeed, after scrubbing out the tubes, you can set the barrels aside and attend to the locks, before going back and wiping out the tubes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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8borerifle
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Reged: 15/04/08
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Loc: Ohio,USA
Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: DarylS]
      #194722 - 24/11/11 02:21 PM

Thanks Daryl S, makes a lot of sense. Monday I might mail the .577 double rifle to a top name double rifle gunsmith for his opinion. For him to sleeve and rechamber both barrels would be $780.00. My question is: Would this raise the value of the rifle equal or more than the repair cost, or would it actually lower the value of the rifle. No extraction problems now, bores are good, chambers have a lot of small pits 3/4 of the way up the chambers. Should I just leave it alone? The rifle is a heavy .577 3" BPE by a top name London maker.

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DarylS
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: 8borerifle]
      #194803 - 25/11/11 05:01 AM

If the cases are not expanding into the pits, they are not large enough to worry about - in my opinion. You MUST make certain the barrels are scrupulously clean & dry after shooting and well oiled with a water displacing lube, flushing out any residual moisture before final oiling if a final oiling is necessary in your climate.

If living in high humidity area, you may require extra protection for your barrels. Around here, with the average humidity around 50%, WD40 is all that is needed after flushing the barrels with water and drying with patches. You may need a better 'reservative' than we do.

About value change - can't say, don't know.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Loc: Nevada
Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: DarylS]
      #194806 - 25/11/11 05:27 AM

8borerifle-


Who is the double rifle smith?
Show us photos of the rifle please!
Also, please start a thread on the repair if you end up having it done.
Include before/after photos of the chambers and breeches if you can.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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8borerifle
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Reged: 15/04/08
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Re: fixing pitted chamber [Re: tinker]
      #194831 - 25/11/11 12:35 PM

Hi Tinker, I will try to get some pictures before and after. I am not sure what I am going to do. Like I said, I might send the rifle out Monday to see what he thinks. He said there are various ways he can repair the chambers, depending on what has to be done, if it can be done. That is why he needs to look at and fire the rifle. I will post when I hear anything and when I get some pictures. Thanks

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