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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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oupa
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Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ???
      #170655 - 31/10/10 10:56 AM

I've been working on a .30-30Win. hammer gun lately and today went out to the farm to test it. During chambering it just closed on the GO gauge and would not close on the NO-GO gauge. It fired primed (empty) cases from both barrels consistantly but today the right barrel would not fire a loaded cartridge. Even repeated hits would not fire the round. Admittedly the indentation in the primer was light but the striker is as long as possible without it protruding from the breech face. Protrusion (with the hammer down) is already much more than I'm accustomed to with other guns. The mystery though is why it would fire primed unloaded cases but not loaded ones????
I thought inertia may have something to do with it but common sense would suggest the heavier loaded case would have the advantage there. To, the headspace is pretty tight on the rim so I can't think there would be enough movement to make the difference... yeah, I know we're talking fine tacks but still. I added a bit of weld to the nose of the hammer to lengthen it and reshaped the face to more closely match the angle of the striker collar, thus giving total contact with the collar when fully down and I hope pushing the striker a thou or two farther. The indentation in previously fired primed cases was noticable when I snapped it on a couple of them after the "nose job" so I hope it solved the problem. Will not know until I can return to the range though.

Anyone ever encounter this? Anyone want to further a guess?


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Huvius
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: oupa]
      #170717 - 01/11/10 02:52 AM

Any difference in the dimensions of the primed brass and the loaded shell?
Is the primed brass full length resized or just primed right out of the box? If they are just primed and nothing else, the shoulder could be a bit farther forward thus headspacing off the shoulder and the resized/loaded shell is headspacing off the rim which is allowing the shell to enter a little further into the chamber.
This is probably not so since your guages tell us the headspace is OK but that's all I can think of.

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Oldbrit
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: Huvius]
      #170720 - 01/11/10 03:54 AM

Is it possible that the empty case is in fact headspacing on the neck and when you crimp a bullet in the case, it permits it to seat further in the chamber and it then rests of the rim? Only a suggestion as I would think that Huvius probably has it right.

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oupa
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: Oldbrit]
      #170743 - 01/11/10 02:29 PM

Thanks fellas. I suppose that could be happening. The difference is negligeble, thousandths or less but enough to prevent detonation of the primer in the loaded cartridges. Didn't make it to the range today so still don't know. Hoping the nose job on the hammer takes care of it though.

I was using both reloadeds and factory loaded ammo with the same results from both. The expanded neck could be hanging it up just enough to make the difference though and closing the action seating the (empty) cartidge just enough to close but still shallow enough to catch the striker. In fact this is probably the best explaination as the loaded rounds drop in with that thunk, thunk that is so reasuring when loading a double. The empties however do not. I had assumed it was merely the extra weight of the loaded rounds... maybe not eh?
The chambers are reamed with a minimum dimension reamer. The supplier actually cautioned that some ammo with sloppy tolerances may not fit properly... You just may be on to something! I've been so hung up on headspacing on the rim I hadn't thought of the expanded necks. Thanks!


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oupa
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: oupa]
      #172070 - 25/11/10 03:39 PM

Sorry for the delay, I've been quite busy lately. Seems the problem was appearently as suggested - the empty cases hanging up on the case mouth. After re-shaping the hammer face it fired every round! The rifle is still unfinished however as proofing resulted in slight movement of the right barrel due to too shallow threads (or would that be too deep?). A dumb mistake I should have caught!!!

The barrels are attached by way of a bushing or sleeve, threaded OD to match those cut on the ID of the monoblock and ID to match those cut on the OD of the new barrels... confusing? Has to do with utilizing barrels laying around the shop that weren't quite large enough to thread into the mono block directly. Except for my unforgivable sloppy threading the method should be quite safe.
I removed the barrels and set them back a bit with new threads per barrel then "HighForce 44" soldered them just to be sure. Need to re-cut the extractor notch and chambers before any more testing but wont have time for that till at least next week sometime.

The above makes me sound just able enough to create trouble doesn't it? I swear I'm not normally so sloppy. Guess anyone can make a mistake although such "mistakes" in gun work can have dangerous and unforgivable consequences!!!


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: oupa]
      #172071 - 25/11/10 04:30 PM

Quote:


I swear I'm not normally so sloppy. Guess anyone can make a mistake although such "mistakes" in gun work can have dangerous and unforgivable consequences!!!




I guess so, but if that happened we would have to change your name from "Oupa" to "Oops"

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.



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Ron_Vella
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #172092 - 26/11/10 12:11 AM

Oupa,
As info, I always cut very closely-matching threads and then solder with "Hi-Force" as well, when doing finally assembly of barrels to monoblock. I don't think that there is any such thing as "overkill" when doing this job!!

Best,
Ron Vella.


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oupa
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #172111 - 26/11/10 09:49 AM

Thanks for the pass fellas. I'm still puzzled how the loose threads got by me. The barrel cinched up tight when installed. It wasn't obvious until the barrels were removed... and I had done a lot of sundry work already oweing to my confidence in the barrel joint. In retro spec the evening I was cutting the threads my youngest son and a buddy dropped by to pick up a couple of his guns. I stopped work and dealt with them, shot the bull for a while then finished the job while they watched and the conversation continued. I'm guessing the distraction was a contributing factor. Also when re-cutting the shoulders yesterday - my first threading job since this one - the bit was quite dull, needing sharpening before the redo could be tackled. Possibly another contributing factor...
This wasn't a catastrophic event (not yet at least!) just noticable movement, which luckily showed up during the test firing process. Maybe 0.050" enough excess headspace to prevent firing although I don't think this had anything to do with the original subject of this thread. At any rate it sure emphisizes the need to proof every project even where its not a legal requirement! Mistakes DO HAPPEN regardless of the care taken.


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oupa
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: oupa]
      #172556 - 03/12/10 09:08 AM

Well I've been back at the 30-30 hammer gun recently and the final result is that I've decided to scrap the project, at least on this action. An explaination is in order if only to aid those budding builders out there...

The original subject of this thread - loose barrels I attributed to sloppy threading - may or may not be correct in light of recent discoveries. The action in question while old is quite heavy. Together with the relatively mild 30-30Win. cartridge at a standard 2100fps loading I assumed would be perfectly safe. Enter the old caution about "assume" (ass of u and me).

After carefully refitting the barrels and rechambering I went back to the range. Testing went fine and "proof loads" did not indicate any problems.... Now for the regulation!

The first attempt proved the barrels pleasingly close, within three inches laterally and perfectly even horizontally! However it was crossfiring... The second attempt showed my estimes were woefully off with considerable deviation between barrels. Back to the shop and aided by a laser bore sighter shining on the shop wall with the barrels in the vise I carefully estimated the difference between where it was and where I moved it to, again with essentally guessing where that movement might end up in reality at fifty yards but at least confident on joint elevation.

All this testing (along with just having fun) amounted to something around thirty rounds of regular ammo and four (two each side) "proof loads." During the last range session I began to notice some troubling signs. Namely the action was getting "sticky" to open. Not stuck but unusually tight after being fired. This began gradually with just the ocasional ocurance and progressed to every time. Between shots and unloaded it seemed fine though and careful examination and even measurements did not indicate any change in the dimentions of the action. All along I have had some deformed primers but due to the nature of the rifle I hadn't put much concern in it. I attributed the stickyness to the primers. During the second range session I had also begun to encounter an ocasional failure to fire on the first hammer drop but always firing if I re-cocked and tried again... Hmmmm. I attributed THAT to the previous assumption that the hammer faces needed some re-working... Hmmmm.
More examination and measuring failed to show ANY signs of elongation of the action and head space was still good... Hmmmm. This was really vexing me and I repeatedly ran all of it over and over in my mind. In my zeal for success on this particular action I decided I was making excuses for individual issues that are in fact ALL attributable (and obvious signs of) ONE issue. Plasticity! In short the action is streching momentarily under stress and returning to original dimension after pressure is relieved, however some things such as the deformed primers and sticky lug and crossbolt remain after the fact. The too short firing pin reach could be attributed to the continued (miniscule) elongation that may remain during periods of extended firing... It seems to make sense anyway. The original gun was quite old which would suggest the possibility of questionable steel that could lead to this situation even though the action appears more than heavy enough. Another reason to only use a donor gun of documentable "proof" and good condition even for relatively mild chamberings.

Continuing in this condition will eventually lead to failure - coming off-face, excessive headspace, cracking or even breaking of the action as continued flexing work-hardens it. One easy solution would be reduced loads. I WILL NOT however build any firearm for a factory cartridge not capable of factory ammunition. You see one day it will be owned by someone else who may not know or observe my built-in limitations... I'd hate to be sitting in heaven one day and meet someone arriving as a result of something I set in motion. No, this project is canciled!!! I may try fitting a pair of .22CF barrels I have in the shop for a hornet... that should be safe. I also have several donor actions / guns around that I may re-fit the 30-30 barrels to if deemed to be long enough. I will eventually build a 30-30 though. It makes a perfect deer rifle for the woods where short ranges and ease of swinging it are more important than when sitting in a box stand in a bean field and the 30-30 has long ago proven its reputation on whitetails under such conditions... plus its just a neat little round.

The moral to this story is to keep an open mind. While it'd be easy to remain quiet on my arguably predictable failures, I hope my posting them here will save others making the same mistakes. This is a " whole nother ballgame " from screwing together a modern bolt action rifle! Something I've done often and some say well. Not content with the status quo however, I will continue until succeeding at this higher art!


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: oupa]
      #172607 - 04/12/10 08:50 AM

I am happy to see that you seem to be assessing the situation correctly, or at least in such a manner that you perhaps will not get injured. W. Ellis Brown, the chap who wrote the book on shotgun to double rifle conversions, now in its second edition, tried several times to convert one 16 ga. to 7x57R, but eventually decided against it, after experiencing problems similar to what you relate. He concluded that the 16 ga. was simply too small for such use. Prior to Ellis Brown's writing of his book, I took class from him, at gunsmithing school in MN, and one of the lead instructors in the school, said, regarding converting American made shotgun actions for double rifles, that they, American double shotgun actions, are plenty robust for such use, but severely lacking in their bolting systems, so they warned against such use. In my conversions, I have never had one fail, but I use a great deal of caution in choosing the shotgun actions I use, and use only ones with well fitting Greener crossbolts and Purdey underbolts (if not well fitting, I make them so), and plenty large in size, and never an American made action. In that process, I have used mostly modern actions, of 1960s or newer vintage, but some after WWII actions, mostly German, but some Belgiam, some Spanish, and even a few French, including the big Spanish 10 ga. mag. double shotgun to full load .577 NE, without a problem, and know of at least three others who built .577s on same type actions, and two who built .600 NE on same type action, so that is plenty strong for these big bores!

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4seventy
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #172612 - 04/12/10 11:51 AM

No disrespect meant to Ellis Brown, his book has some good information on building DR's, but it is not surprising that he ran into trouble with his 16 gauge to 7x57 conversion.
He describes such a conversion in his first book, and shows his calculations regarding pressures against the standing breech.
The calculations he makes are BADLY wrong, and I do mean BADLY! He grossly overestimates the strength of the 16 gauge action he is using.

I don't know if he made any attempt to correct the calculations in the 2nd edition of the book.


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4seventy
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: oupa]
      #172613 - 04/12/10 11:56 AM

Oupa,
Thankyou for your detailed account of the DR build, it has been very interesting to read.
You'll have a ton of experience to help with your next project.
Please keep us informed on your progress, and best of luck with your next DR conversion.


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AkMike
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: 4seventy]
      #172614 - 04/12/10 12:30 PM

Just for an FYI, I have a 450 NE done on a JP Sauer 12 ga platform and it's working quite well. It's well balanced and shoots great.

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oupa
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: 4seventy]
      #172647 - 05/12/10 11:08 AM

Quote:

Oupa,
Thankyou for your detailed account of the DR build, it has been very interesting to read.
You'll have a ton of experience to help with your next project.
Please keep us informed on your progress, and best of luck with your next DR conversion.




Why thank you! When a project fails it is always a disapointment but if we approach EVERY task with an open mind towards learning from it, the failures along with the successes enrich us. The internet and this forum in particular has the potential to enlighten many from not only the successes but also the mistakes of each of us.


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: 4seventy]
      #172861 - 10/12/10 07:49 AM

W. Ellis Brown, I am sure, did not make calculation errors, in doing the math. for the 16 gauge action to 7x57R conversion, but clearly did make errors in the proof reading of the book, though it was proof read by several people trying to sort out the various errors prior to printing. I took the conversion class at gunsmithing school in MN from Brown, prior to his writing book on same subject, thus I know that he wouldn't have made such silly mistakes, but I am sure that they simply occurred as a result of the long drawn out process of writing the text, several stages of proof reading, etc. A ton of errors were found in the first proof reading, but many still remained, and even in the second edition, many more were found and eliminated, but some still remained; even I must say that this is amazing, though I know from personal experience how difficult it can be, proof reading. Bottom line is that it is Brown's book, and both editions had errors in them that escaped proof reading, so he is to blame for that. Brown clearly later admitted to the errors in the books, and tried to clear up the issues, but that is nearly impossible to do, once books are distributed.

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4seventy
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Re: Odd problem, suggestions, guesses, etc. ??? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #172865 - 10/12/10 10:32 AM

Quote:

W. Ellis Brown, I am sure, did not make calculation errors, in doing the math. for the 16 gauge action to 7x57R conversion,




His math calculations are WAY wrong. Take a look at page 19 of the first edition of his book.
When calculating the strength of his 16g action he makes serious mistakes.

First he uses a grossly incorrect proof pressure of 32,000 psi. It has been claimed this figure was just a "typo" but it is not, because he actually uses that 32,000psi in his calculations.

His second big mistake, is that to calculate how much the force against the breech will be for the (incorrect) 32,000psi proof load, he multiplies that figure by .810". This is TOTALLY wrong.
.810" is case head DIAMETER on the 16g.
He should be using case head AREA, NOT DIAMETER, which will give a vastly different answer.

So, he has the proof pressure way wrong in his calculation, then he gets the math totally wrong when calculating the pressure against the breech.

The bottom line is that he wrongly calculates that his 16g action was proofed to withstand a massive 25,920 pounds against the standing breech.
This figure is WAY WAY wrong because he has used the wrong proof pressure and then also used the wrong case head area.

The calculations should have been done at 12,000psi for the 16g, multiplied by 1.3 to 1.5 for the proof pressure, multiplied by the CASE HEAD AREA.

12,000psi X 1.5 = 18,000psi

Case head area is radius squared X 3.14.
So radius of .405" X .405" X 3.14 = .515 square inches.

Multiply proof pressure of 18,000psi by .515 sq inches = 9270 pounds pressure against the standing breech.

His calculation was that the action was proofed to withstand 25,920 pounds against the standing breech, when in fact it would really have been proofed at less than 10,000.
That is a HUGE difference , and a dangerous one.

Again I stress that I mean no disrespect to Ellis Brown whatsoever.
I am merely bringing this to light so that people who have read the book don't get the wrong idea regarding the strength of some shotgun actions.


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