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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game
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Ingwe
.275 member


Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Texas
Buckshot & Big Cats
      #17065 - 23/07/04 09:11 AM

I know of several instances where Peter Capstick shot big cats with his 12 gauge, and it always worked with rather spectacular results. There was the jag that bit his foot so badly - he shot it in the face with the 12 and blew his head clean off. I know of a lioness once that was intent on rearranging his anatomy, and all he had was his 12 loaded with 7 1\2 bird shot. He shot her in the face and also evaporated her head. Same with the big jag in Belize, and I know of at least 2 other lions - all their heads were turned into a mist of hair, teeth, bone, blood, and brains. Not surprisingly, Peter wrote high praise for the 12 on cats up close.

On the other hand, I have heard a lot of stories of hunters in deep yogurt because they failed to stop a charge from a cat with a shotgun. However, in these stories, I have never seen where it was said if the cats were hit square in the face like Peter's, or if they were hit but not in the head, or if they were missed entirely, or even if the hunter was able to fire his shotgun at all. So, I am wondering - what is the deal with the 12 gauge on cats? The hunters who get hammered - are they hitting the head squarely like Peter and still getting nailed? Was Peter just lucky and happened to have cats that were less buckshot resistant than other cats? Why the apparently conflicting opnions on this topic?

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: Ingwe]
      #17087 - 23/07/04 11:33 AM

Buckshot is best left in the imagination of PHC. At the ranges a Leopard will be shot at the shot pattern is very small. At longer ranges, such as 25 plus yards, the pattern is too big.

A much better solution is a rifle, 375 and up that points well. Better yet a Double.

If you take your shotty after Leopard don't forget the linoleum suit and leather football helmet. Oh, and the monicle too.

Most people who get mauled by Leopards miss or never get a shot off. A shotgun won't help there.

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Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Will
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: mickey]
      #17134 - 24/07/04 11:55 AM

Most of the time leopards are too fast, as you say, to get off a shot when they come at close range. The only advantage I could see to a shotgun would be if the shotgun were light and handy, and could be moved/aimed rapidly. More rapidly than a heavy rifle.

Then with a lightweight shotgun all you have to do is wait for the leopard to get close. Waiting for the leopard to sink its teeth into your forehead would be about optimal.

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_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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atkinson6
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: Will]
      #17242 - 27/07/04 05:23 AM

I want at least one shotty gun in the crowd if I am following up a wounded Leopard in the grass and thats for sure.....Old George Hoffman was mighty handy with one...

I think they have a place up close and personal if the shooter knows his business and can wait until the last second, and I know many PHs who can do just that and have done that many times...for me I kinda like a handy rifle, but not opposed to being handed a shotgun.

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Ingwe
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Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Texas
Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: atkinson6]
      #17252 - 27/07/04 06:58 AM


In reply to:

Most people who get mauled by Leopards miss or never get a shot off. A shotgun won't help there.




If that is true, then that could hardly be considered an indictment against the shotgun, as a rifle would be equally of no help there.

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Learn from other people's mistakes - you can't live long enough to make them all yourself.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: atkinson6]
      #17260 - 27/07/04 10:51 AM

I have a shotgun that was made exactly for the close in follow up of cats! It is a Valmet lion O/U, 12 ga, with 20" barrels, and express sights, and a single trigger. I use it with Brenneke slugs, and it will put both barrels in a tea cup out to 15 yds! That is about as good as a shotgun will get, because at 5 yds, no matter what shot pellets you use they will hit as one bullet, and farther away the pattern is too IFEY with buck shot. On top of that buck shot doesn't penetrate well on tough muscle, and hide. They are so well known for wounding, that the Texas Game laws refuse to allow buckshot for whitetail hunting, and require a slug if a shotgun is used for deer. If that stuff wounds that many whitetail, I certainly do not want to go into the weeds with a pissed off 400 lb lion! The slugs are far better, in my opinion, and a light double rifle chambered for somthing like a 450NE 3 1/4", or 450/400 makes my day a lot better. Thank God I haven't had to prove anything I've stated here, in the bush, with a mad lion!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Ingwe
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #17261 - 27/07/04 11:37 AM

Hey Dugaboy,

That is a very neat shotgun. I have a Valmet 412 and I really like it. So, let me ask you this: If you had to deal with a cat charge, and you had your shotgun, what would be your strategy? I mean, like, when would you fire? I understand what you mean about the buckshot having an inconsistent pattern and failing to penetrate hide and muscle at farther ranges, but for me that would not be a problem, because I would not begin firing those ranges. I think my strategy if I were ever faced with that problem would be to have something like your Valmet, and then wait until I could nearly poke his eye out with the muzzle, and then give it to him square in the face at point blank. I would save the second shot in case his tail is still twitching when he stops rolling end over end. In that event, I would think that the buckshot would do a fairly thorough job of adjudicating the matter. I think I would feel more confident with this technique than any other - the only thing though, is like Ray says, you gotta have the discipline to wait until that last hairy second. I would think that if a person started shooting from that far away on a cat, rifle or shotgun, the odds are not good that you are going to hit his light switch, and you would be wasting your precious shots.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #17264 - 27/07/04 12:53 PM

Mac, I'm with you on this one.
If the distance is under 5 yards and the buck shot enters as one big lump, yes, maybe it would be ok.
But if you're back to a single projectile you may as well use a large cal double rifle unless as Will says that perhaps the shottie is lighter and maybe easier/faster to use.

In the late 70's I shot a lot of good size boar pigs using a Win model 1200 18" pump and S&B 00 buckshot.
Side on chest shots at 15 yards worked real well and killed.
Frontal shots into the chest at 1 yard worked real well also and pulled 'em up fast and the big single entry hole would smoke for a short while afterward!

But, rear on shots at pigs running directly away were totally hopeless and I lost a lot of good boars that way.

I have no experience with African big cats but if I had to face a wounded one, give me a big double rifle and softpoint bullets please rather than a shotgun.

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iqbal
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: Ingwe]
      #17302 - 28/07/04 01:59 AM

Somehow hunting a cat or any other animal with a 12 gauge shotgun has never appealed to me,except of course when you are following a wounded animal that you shot with a rifle(an experience i have never had).Maybe i'm old fashioned but anything which has four legs i would never shoot with a shotgun.

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: iqbal]
      #17336 - 28/07/04 12:13 PM

I would prefer a double rifle for follow up on cats, and all other game for that matter.
However I did see a double bbl shotgun that was fitted with a spike bayonet fron as SKS. The owners theory was if the Leopard made it past both bbls the bayonet might keep the leopard off his body while others "filled him full of lead".
He felt if he could "stick" the leopard he could divert his jump and possibly pin him to the ground.

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Ingwe
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Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Texas
Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: NE450No2]
      #17341 - 28/07/04 01:28 PM

Hey NE, That is great. I would love to have seen that shotgun. Actually it might not be as crazy as it seems. I have heard of others with bayonets - though I am not sure if any of them were on dbl shotguns like the one you saw. I think I have also run across a story of someone who actually did save his bacon by using his bayonet during a lion charge. I don't know how much luck a person could have trying to pin a leopard to the ground, but I can definitely see at least being able to divert his leap. It's really funny to think of some of the devices and inventions that leopards have inspired. Boy, leopards are something ELSE! If I had one flying through the air at me, I don't believe that there is anything I would not be willing to try!

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canada
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Reged: 09/05/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Northern Ontario Canada
Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: Ingwe]
      #17344 - 28/07/04 01:37 PM

I used a shotgun with SSG once for follow up on a bear. It was useless. The bear was shot 2 times with a 303 in the front end and once in the chest with SSG. Ended up putting hounds on the bear and shooting it with a rifle. I now used double 9.3 and it works.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: NE450No2]
      #17347 - 28/07/04 01:49 PM

In reply to:

The owners theory was if the Leopard made it past both bbls the bayonet might keep the leopard off his body while others "filled him full of lead".
He felt if he could "stick" the leopard he could divert his jump and possibly pin him to the ground.




Hope he has 30 inch barrels and long arms.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Will
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: NitroX]
      #17407 - 29/07/04 09:52 PM

Yeah, I want see him with a leopard stuck on the end of a shotgun, like a weiner on a stick at a picnic. Oh yeah, I can just see that!

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_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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AdamTayler
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Reged: 22/03/04
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: canada]
      #17495 - 01/08/04 06:51 AM

the first bear I shot was with a 12 guage using slugs at about a distance of 3-4 meters. It made quite a mess inside (I shot it slightly quartering away thru the heart/lungs). It still ran off even though the internals were soup.

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It's the journey, not the destination.

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Ingwe
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Reged: 08/07/04
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Loc: Texas
Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: AdamTayler]
      #17501 - 01/08/04 09:20 AM

Yeah, many animals will take off (or charge you) and still have quite an amazing ammount of fight left in them even with their boiler room totally destroyed. Doesn't much matter what kind of weapon destroyed the boiler room. Really, about the only way to guarantee that an animal will drop at the shot is to hit brain or spine. And again, it doesn't much matter what took out the brain or spine.

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Learn from other people's mistakes - you can't live long enough to make them all yourself.

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canada
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Loc: Northern Ontario Canada
Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: Ingwe]
      #17514 - 01/08/04 08:54 PM

Bears will take a lot of shooting through the boiler room and not stop. The fat seems to fill the holes and he stops bleeding. I have found that a good heavy rifle through the shoulders stops him there. As I have said before SSG's are useless.

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shakari
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: canada]
      #17516 - 02/08/04 04:44 AM

I've never used a shotgun on cats and it's also said that PHC did a lot of his hunting in bars........and I don't know, or particularly care if that's true or not. I do know that he wrote some great books though.

But if I remember correctly, he claimed to use a very special shotgun that was sawn off at both ends and as long as the trigger was kept in the pulled position, it would shoot as fast as he could operate the pump......I also seem to remember that he kept the trigger wired back in that position. He was also very specific on the shot size, which I think was AAA.......so within that specification, I would guess that it would be a reasonably useful weapon on wounded Leopard at close range.......but I sure as hell wouldn't want to use one on a Lion. Actually, I'll personally stick with my rifle on all wounded game without wings.

But before we all criticise PHC too heavily, and without meaning any offence to anyone......hands up all those who can speak from personal experience rather than theory.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (02/08/04 04:51 AM)

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Buckshot & Big Cats [Re: shakari]
      #17519 - 02/08/04 08:31 AM

Well said!

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