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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Belgian proof marks
#168788 - 30/09/10 07:49 PM

Any of you able to decipher Belgian proofmarks?

I found a site explaning their meanings, but still dont quite follow.

I have found a large 8 bore double, with leaf sights, 13.25 lbs, 29" barrels.

The proofmarks include a letter 'R' with a crown above.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Ben

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Sville
.400 member

Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: empirevr]
#168790 - 30/09/10 08:40 PM

Thats a proof mark that was used between 30 january 1894 to 26 february 1968. Try this homepage: http://mallorquina.pagesperso-orange.fr/source/page2.htm. On this page you find most marks and punches.
Regards Sville

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: Sville]
#168791 - 30/09/10 08:45 PM

Says page cannot be found...

But isnt R with a crown the stamp for rifled? I found that much so far.......but I dont know if it is so or not.

The owner was selling as a shotgun, now he says there may be faint rifling.......

Thanks

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Sville
.400 member

Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: empirevr]
#168793 - 30/09/10 09:41 PM

Try google it. The page is still there. But the same happend me when I tried the link. No I don´t think it has anything to do with the rifling. If its marked "B.BLINDEE" or "B.PLOMB" it is rifled.

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Sville
.400 member

Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: Sville]
#168795 - 30/09/10 09:48 PM

This page is written in french and I don´t speak french. But you can be right and that a rifled shotgun is marked with a "crowned R", and the other punches are for rifles.

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Sville
.400 member

Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: Sville]
#168796 - 30/09/10 09:51 PM

"Crowned R"="canon rayé a ne pas confondre avec le contrôleur la lettre étant plus grande que la couronne". I can´t translate it.

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: Sville]
#168799 - 30/09/10 10:33 PM

I have been using this;

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

But what I want to know is.......have I found a bored out rifle, a ball gun, or what??

thanks again

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: empirevr]
#168816 - 01/10/10 06:56 AM

The Belgian proofmark Crown over R means rifled barrel/s.
"B.Plomb" or B.P. means meant to use lead bullets, and "B. Blindee" or B.B means suitable for jacketed bullets.
Can you post some photos of the gun?

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: 4seventy]
#168821 - 01/10/10 07:49 AM

How do I post them though?

Is it still necessary to use a photo support type site??

Thanks

Ben

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CommandCar
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: empirevr]
#168823 - 01/10/10 08:27 AM

what does the crown look like if it is a "R" with a crown containing 3 points, it is a French proof mark meaning the arm has undergone a black powder reproof.

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CommandCar
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: CommandCar]
#168824 - 01/10/10 08:31 AM

The book I am looking at is "Notes on the proof of shotguns & other small arms" 5th ed. You can find it on http://www.abebooks.com/

Raye' mean rifled

Edited by CommandCar (01/10/10 08:37 AM)

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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member

Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: empirevr]
#168825 - 01/10/10 08:37 AM

Quote:

How do I post them though?

Is it still necessary to use a photo support type site??

Thanks

Ben

That's correct, use one of the Photobucket or similar sites. Scan the page, upload to the site then bring the link into NitroExpress.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
#168830 - 01/10/10 01:27 PM

Look at this thread.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=93825&an=0&page=3#Post93825

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: CommandCar]
#168832 - 01/10/10 01:38 PM

Quote:

what does the crown look like if it is a "R" with a crown containing 3 points, it is a French proof mark meaning the arm has undergone a black powder reproof.

Quite a few proofhouses around the world use a Crown over R to signify a re-proof.
This is not the case with the Belgian mark Crown over R though, which definately means the bore or bores are "rifled".

To understand what proofmarks on any particular gun really mean, it is very important to first establish which proofhouse or which country carried out the proofing, and stamped the marks on that gun.
Crown over R proof mark means very different things to different proofhouses.

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kamilaroi
.400 member

Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: 4seventy]
#168834 - 01/10/10 03:14 PM

Try Gerhard Wirnsberger's "Standard Directory of Proofmarks" ISBN: 0-89149-006-X

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: CommandCar]
#168837 - 01/10/10 06:43 PM

Here is a link to a Belgian double in our DR Archive forum, showing typical Belgian proofs complete with the "Crown over R" stamp, meaning "rifled bores".
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=97779&an=0&page=4#Post97779

Here is another.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=86695&an=0&page=5#Post86695

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: 4seventy]
#168839 - 01/10/10 07:37 PM

If I may be so bold.......

Any chance of sending the pics to one of you to post for me please?

I never use stuff like photobucket.......I am not even net savvy...

Thanks

Ben

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3555
Loc: Colorado

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: empirevr]
#168865 - 02/10/10 10:08 AM

This is sometimes helpful although not entirely complete:

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Sville
.400 member

Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: Huvius]
#169491 - 14/10/10 05:24 AM

Here are empirevr pics of the 8 bore, also an old punt gun from same seller. Maybe someone can help him.

Edited by CptCurl (14/10/10 09:02 PM)

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Belgian proof marks [Re: Sville]
#169495 - 14/10/10 06:50 AM

This "crowned R" is indeed the Liege, Belgium mark for rifled barrels, canon raye in French, so it was proofed as a black-powder 8 bore elephant rifle. Perhaps it was intnded for use in th the Belgian Congo. The star/S is the personal mark of a proof inspector. The "perron" (from pierre =stone), in fact a pineapple on a pillar, is the age-old symbol of the City of Liege. The ELG in a crowned oval is in use since 1893.
4seventy, b. blindee = jacketed bullet and b.plomb = lead bullet merely denoted the type of bullet a rifle was proofed for, if there was a choice of factory loads in the same case.

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