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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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EXPRESS
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Reged: 03/02/03
Posts: 11
Loc: Italy
Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465
      #168357 - 24/09/10 08:35 AM

I am looking at buying this Holland & Holland Royal ejector rifle, but I would like to draw on the experience and opinions of these boards for advice.
The rifle was built in 1913, originally the length of pull was 15”3/8 which has since been trimmed to a more civilized length, which I have not measured but fits me well.
Original weight was 10lb 10 oz, with 26” barrels in .500/465 3”1/4. One nice detail, the locks are signed by Joseph Brazier Ashes, who was described as "a very excellent best Lock Filer" by Wesley Richards. [url=http://www.josephbrazier.com]www.josephbrazier.com . It is tight and on face, the bore and rifling are great, though it is not easy to see in the pictures. There is also a small ivory container in the case that I do not know the purpose of, as well a spare pair of firing pins stowed in the pistol grip.
I must say that the photos I took of the rifle do not really do it justice, they are particularly unflattering and have managed to enhance the tiniest blemishes, making the general tone of the gun look quite a bit duller than it actually is in person. It was a cheap, old digital camera and the lighting was not good. And I am obviously not much of a photographer.
The gun is not flawless, though it is considerably nicer than it appears in the photos. So without further ado here are the pics:










































Edited by CptCurl (27/09/10 01:19 AM)

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: EXPRESS]
      #168359 - 24/09/10 09:00 AM

It looks wonderful to me! Others will have better technical analysis.

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baileybradshaw
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Reged: 21/06/08
Posts: 305
Loc: Diana, TX
Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: 500grains]
      #168360 - 24/09/10 10:08 AM

Looks like a high class shooter to me. Barrels were not on the action when the rusting occured. My only avise would be to treat it like buying a horse. Take it to the vet....or gunsmith....for wellness check. From here it looks like it would pass with flying colors.

--------------------
www.bradshawgunandrifle.com

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Lix
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Reged: 14/02/10
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Loc: Aust, Tas, Hobart
Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: baileybradshaw]
      #168367 - 24/09/10 12:34 PM

No, I am sorry but I think that would be a very poor purchase. So poor it makes me feel sick that someone could be put in the position of having to look after it. Being very conscious of looking after the well being of my fellow shooter, and should you go ahead with this silly venture, I will offer to look after it for you.

Alex

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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
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Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: Lix]
      #168383 - 24/09/10 04:02 PM

That's lovely. Sorry I can't add to the technical evaluation.

Cheers,

Chris

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: Rockdoc]
      #168386 - 24/09/10 05:44 PM

Express, Pat Murphy (Holland gun room) is a friend, do you want me to ask him the history, who it was orig made for etc ? he can probably give me a rough valuation too which I can pass on. Obviously I won´t contact him unless you wish me to, best, Mike

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #168395 - 24/09/10 09:52 PM

As an "extra finish" double c/w optional extended top tang and in that condition it's worth a motza. No doubt Holland's would wish it back in their inventory of "best for sale".

Maybe 55,000 pounds sterling?

Comments anyone?

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: kamilaroi]
      #168403 - 25/09/10 12:25 AM

IMO, 55K GBP is high for this gun.
I would think in the $54K-$60K US if it were on the market. Still not chump change of course.

There are a couple ticks as mentioned previously which detract a little, such as the shortened stock and the pitting, but would have no effect on the guns performance. My suspicion, considering the barrels, is that they have been reblacked at the time the pitting was cleaned up. Could have been long ago when this was done. This isn't a big deal of course, but some high end collectors scoff at any refinishing.
The little ivory can is for spare parts - firing pins, screws, small springs etc. It is my impression that these little parts would normally be in the ivory can and spare sights would be held in the grip cap compartment. Of course, a hunter could also put a spare firing pin in the cap too when out after game since his guncase would very likely be back at camp. Sometimes you see the same little can made of rosewood or ebony.
Great thing about doubles is that if one lock has a broken spring, then you still have a perfectly serviceable single shot on the other side of the action!

All in all though, a terrific rifle! These will always command a premium on the double market, so your money is pretty safe in a good H&H Royal. BTW, IMO, it is a Royal eventhough it isn't engraved as such. (that is a sticking point for some folks too...)

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: Huvius]
      #168418 - 25/09/10 06:45 AM

Have not heard back from Pat yet but i think Huvius is more in the court, I think it is a Royal and my guess is about 45K USD, maybe a bit lower but what do I know...will revert if I hear anything, best, Mike (no way it would make 55KGBP)

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Anonymous
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Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #168425 - 25/09/10 12:21 PM

Quote:

I am looking at buying this Holland & Holland Royal ejector rifle, but I would like to draw on the experience and opinions of these boards for advice.
The rifle was built in 1913, originally the length of pull was 15”3/8 which has since been trimmed to a more civilized length, which I have not measured but fits me well.
Original weight was 10lb 10 oz, with 26” barrels in .500/465 3”1/4. One nice detail, the locks are signed by Joseph Brazier Ashes, who was described as "a very excellent best Lock Filer" by Wesley Richards. www.josephbrazier.com . It is tight and on face, the bore and rifling are great, though it is not easy to see in the pictures. There is also a small ivory container in the case that I do not know the purpose of, as well a spare pair of firing pins stowed in the pistol grip.
I must say that the photos I took of the rifle do not really do it justice, they are particularly unflattering and have managed to enhance the tiniest blemishes, making the general tone of the gun look quite a bit duller than it actually is in person. It was a cheap, old digital camera and the lighting was not good. And I am obviously not much of a photographer.
The gun is not flawless, though it is considerably nicer than it appears in the photos.



It appears to be made between 1911-1912, it is a Royal grade H&H not an model de-luxe, strap over the comb was standard on this calibre. Ivory can was for spare firing pins and screws. Weight is good. 15 3/8? hmmm are there any markings on the brass oval? Maharaja of Patiala, Bhupinder Singh ordered lots of guns around this time frame and thats his LOP. Could it be maybe? Mike have Pat check those records. Has the nice old lever strap forend release, stock being cut is a small but costly issue to some, bores appear excellent but its hard to judge accurately from these photos, barrel pitting on the breech end face is an easy fix, looks to have the original color on the action in spots. I think its a nice one looking from here. I agree with Mike on price about's $45k US would be more than plenty in the open market, but if H&H had it out it would be more. Its an early workhorse H&H in nice shape for a 100 years on the scene.

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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
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Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: ]
      #168439 - 25/09/10 09:15 PM

I notice it has very similar treatment of the 1/4 rib and front site ramps as my 1913 H&H bolt action, crocodile skin perhaps?

Lovely rifle. Chris

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: Rockdoc]
      #168659 - 28/09/10 10:32 PM

I have a copy of the build sheet from July 1913, will post when I have "translated" it, copy not great !!! LOP orig, best, Mike (I could use link to the photos that I can email to Hollands for a reasonable valuation. I can´t forward them from forum

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #168664 - 29/09/10 12:58 AM

Order sheet Jan 16 1913
for a Mr Dair/Daw (can´t read properly !)

.465 Royal hammerless ejector completed July 1913
26" barrels
double triggers
pistol hand stock with chhek piece and detachable locks
15 3/8 inches stock length with a 1/4 cast off at face
10lbs 10oz
bend 2 1/4 1 1/2

thats about it, best, Mike
p.s. GBP25-30k but top price means it is very good indeed

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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #183300 - 09/06/11 11:13 AM

I can find very little info on this round.

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bwanabobftw
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Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 675
Loc: Texas
Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: tophet1]
      #183302 - 09/06/11 11:24 AM

tophet1

The ".465" was Hollands answer to the .45 cal. ban in India and the Sudan . Before the ban on .45 cal. sporting rounds the standard H&H round was a 500/450. They simply opened up their 500/450 to "465". You will see on some older tins of ammo. The "Indian Load" or ".465 Indian Load". Most of the .465's you see are Holland and Holland guns, I have seen a few made by Francote out of Belgium (and I am sure there were others) . As for the load it is just like the rest, 480 grain bullet at about 2150 fps. Hope that helps.
Robert

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #183303 - 09/06/11 12:21 PM



WR made a few 500/465's.

Nice short barrelled jobs.

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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
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Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #183305 - 09/06/11 12:32 PM

Thx Guys. There are two for sale in the London Gun Room of H&H and I haven't seen much on this round.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Help me evaluate this H&H .500/.465 [Re: tophet1]
      #183308 - 09/06/11 12:54 PM

tophet

Probably because it was a bit of a proprietary round by H&H
and most others seem to go for the 470 NE.

It is a very famous cartridge.

.

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