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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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hipwr223
.224 member


Reged: 26/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Pa, Montgomery County.
Double Rifle ID please
      #166866 - 27/08/10 02:53 AM

I bought a neat pre war German double rifle in 9.3 x 74 and would like to know if any of the experts here can shed some light on it for me.



















thanks for any insight

Edited by CptCurl (27/08/10 02:32 PM)


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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: hipwr223]
      #166872 - 27/08/10 05:26 AM

You have what is known, by Americans, as a "clamshell" action double rifle in 9.3x74R caliber, no doubt one of the very best, if not the best caliber ever created by the Germans, especially in classic early calibers, and that is why it remains so popular even today in Europe. The most common bullet weight for this caliber was and still is 286 grains @ 2300 fps. That weight may shoot well in your rifle. "Clamshell" or stabil actions were made for various calibers, up to and including the .600 N.E., even though that caliber wasn't German. They are very strong actions, obviously---I have several myself, and have seen many others, yet have not seen a single one that was off face or otherwise not as tight as new. At first, when I first encountered these actions, I did not find them too attractive, but they grew on me over time, and I think they will too on other interested people, and they last forever, it seems. One finds an assortement of different names on these actions, names of early day German gun makers, and names of gun retailers as well, who did no gun making at all. Gun experts in Germany and elsewhere, now think that these clamshell actions were made by only one single foundry firm, probably at Sauer, (research was done on that, in Germany, but it could not be determined, for sure, who made these actions), and sold to numerous gun makers who completed the rifles, from outsourced parts they acquired, bought, and put their names on completed guns/rifles. Some dealers too, who did not make the rifles at all, did no work on them, but still had their names engraved on them, so the names on these rifles means only that such names are names of early day gunmakers or dealers, most of whom little or no information on them can be found today, due to poor records kept by these makers/dealers, or such records being destroyed during WWII, and/or due to results of our actions against Germany following and during WWII. The proof marks show your rifle to be made AFTER 1912, when the German proof house first started to use the stamp showing bullet type and weight (bullet type USED FOR PROOF; not used for service daily use, "ST MG" over bullet weight in grams; that bullet weight is regulation bullet weight too) ST MG means steel metal jacket, and bullet weight on yours says "18,9" --18.9 grams, if I am seeing it correctly. 18.9 grams = 291.6 grains. I can't read, see clearly, the other proof marks you are trying to show, but crown over N or word nitro was used for nitro guns. Yours is certainly a nitro rifle. From 1891 to 1939, bore (not groove) dia. in mm is shown, 8,8 meaning 8.8 mm for 9.3 mm caliber. Your rifle was, no doubt, made between WWI and WWII. It is highly likely that no more clamshell actions will ever be made, so take care of the one you have, and enjoy it.

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hipwr223
.224 member


Reged: 26/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Pa, Montgomery County.
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #166873 - 27/08/10 05:37 AM

thank you for the wonderful detail. I picked this up at an estate sale that had no other firearms. I tend to think this was brought home by a returning GI after WW2 and has simply sat dormant. There is some external finish issues but the bores are bright and shiny and the action is very tight. I had pretty much surmised that this was a guild gun and any real detail would be difficult if not impossible to find.

I do not think too many people at this auction had much interest in firearms as this double was pretty much given away at the gavel price of $600! I feel fortunate to have bought it at any price and I am planning on loading for this with lighter loads and shooting some white tail deer

Edited by hipwr223 (27/08/10 05:40 AM)


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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: hipwr223]
      #166874 - 27/08/10 06:19 AM

Doubleriflejack, this rifle is more early than you think! As the ledger? number "635" shows, it was proofed by the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse in "2.12" = February 1912! The Suhl proofhouse did not apply such ledger numbers and Zella -Mehlis started somewhat earlier than Suhl to use mm dimensions for the bore diameter instead of the old gauge numbers.IMHO this rifle was made for Fischer in Berlin by the guntrade in Zella-Mehlis, a rivalling gunmaking town just a few miles, 6km north of Suhl, then sold by Fischer to Specht in Posen who finally retailed it. Posen city was German until 1918, since 1920 it is Poznan in Poland.
hipwr223, I would try to get some factory ammo first to try the regulation. Though the standard load is a 18g = 286gr bullet now, but this should be ok for your rifle. "Lighter" loads may not suit the regulation of your barrels, as lower-than-factory velocity will probably mke your barrels shoot apart while lighter bullets at higher velocity will make them cross.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by kuduae (27/08/10 06:28 AM)


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hipwr223
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Reged: 26/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Pa, Montgomery County.
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: kuduae]
      #166879 - 27/08/10 10:42 AM

Great info gents. Zella-Mehlis was a gun making hub I would imagine with the likes of Walther and Menz not to mention many other smaller firms there.

I am greatful for the info you both have presented me and it is helping to paint a picture of where and when this neat old rifle was built.


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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Max G. Fischer Musselshell DR [Re: hipwr223]
      #166880 - 27/08/10 10:54 AM

What a find. Axel is correct on all accounts as the new proof rules went into effect on September 1st, 1911 and this example passed thru some 5 months later. Both of the Fischers of Berlin didn't peddle any junk and they seem to cotton to that type A&D action without the Musselshell side frame reinforcement. I am very surprised to find that a Musselshell DR passed thru the ZM proofhouse and on for Fischer to finish. For the most part the Fischers were one of the few Berlin firms that actually contributed a some effort toward their examples. This new info is going to make us rethink the manner in which the Musselshells were sourced. I'd say that Fischer sourced the components and the contracted a Z-M maker to do most of the work. Are there any initials are stamps the the forend lug? Also what about on the standing breech. Surely a war trophy and a very nice find. I've seen that mark on the lower rib before as well as the "Krupp's Stahl" stamp but I'll have to dig a bit.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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hipwr223
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Reged: 26/08/10
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Loc: Pa, Montgomery County.
Re: Max G. Fischer Musselshell DR [Re: ellenbr]
      #166881 - 27/08/10 11:30 AM

I will have to check the forend lug when I get back into town as I can not remember if there were any markings there. Again thanks for the wonderful education, I am learning quite a bit.

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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Max G. Fischer Musselshell DR [Re: hipwr223]
      #166886 - 27/08/10 01:03 PM

hipwr223,

You certainly picked up a very interesting piece and at one heck of a nice price to boot. For one the use of pins instead of slotted screws in forward portion of the receiver caught my attention as I haven't seen many of them (peculiar to say one maker?) and the stamp in the lower rib just forward of the barrel lugs is something I haven't seen before. I see you have drawn the attention of some very knowledgeable people so please post pictures of every little detail. Coincidently of late there has been quite a bit of discussion as to the origins of the clamshell receiver and what firm or firms sourced the many makers that offered them. I hope your post re-energizes such discussions. Clamshell double rifles, drillings, and even shotguns are not in anyway ordinary so you were very lucky; having one chambered for the 9.3X74R makes it even better. Enjoy!

I look forward to hearing more about your find.

Regards,

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Max G. Fischer Musselshell DR [Re: Buchsemann]
      #166925 - 28/08/10 04:24 AM

Here's a scattergun by Fischer:


DR by Max G. Fischer







I think the mark on the lower rib to be a Fluer de Lis with an extended base, a Lily or Iris.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (28/08/10 01:03 PM)


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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Max G. Fischer Musselshell DR [Re: ellenbr]
      #166927 - 28/08/10 05:00 AM

Hi Raimey, I certainly would like to have a look inside that shotgun's action! With that pronounced bulge of the action bar it is very unlikely to be a "common" Anson &Deeley. It rather reminds me of other British hammerless designs like the Tranter or Gye.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Max G. Fischer Musselshell DR [Re: kuduae]
      #166928 - 28/08/10 05:06 AM

Axel:
The gun resides in Montana and I think it to be a Facile Princeps variant. I'm still digging but it appears that upper rung clients requested an action similar to Greener's Facile Princeps or his Rational. One other note on the DR is looking at the forward portion of the horn triggerguard bow one will see metal work. I've very confident that the scattergun was from sourced components by Fischer and it has the same metal/horn triggerbow guard. So either the craftsman who made the DR performed the same task or Fischer had a large hand in finishing.






Interesting O. Geyger scattergun with center mounted scears, sometimes seen on DRs. Axel is it worth a comment?





Phillip Reeb



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (28/08/10 01:04 PM)


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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: hipwr223]
      #166933 - 28/08/10 08:30 AM

hipwr223, I am sure you are correct, that it was brought home by a GI, following WWII, as so many other guns/rifles were when we disarmed Germany. Kuduee is correct, of course, as I simply couldn't see many of the marks from computer screen and my eyesight. Yes, the more I thought about it, after my initial post, I thought the rifle to be early, but after 1912 for sure, and "bingo" it was Feb. 1912 proof. Since Kuduee is in Germany, and obviously familiar with guns, he, rather than I, is much more equipped to answer such questions.

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hipwr223
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Reged: 26/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Pa, Montgomery County.
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #166935 - 28/08/10 09:30 AM

some more pictures by request...











Edited by CptCurl (28/08/10 01:06 PM)


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hipwr223
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Reged: 26/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Pa, Montgomery County.
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: hipwr223]
      #166936 - 28/08/10 09:32 AM













Edited by CptCurl (28/08/10 01:07 PM)


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hipwr223
.224 member


Reged: 26/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Pa, Montgomery County.
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: hipwr223]
      #166938 - 28/08/10 09:37 AM























Edited by CptCurl (28/08/10 01:09 PM)


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hipwr223
.224 member


Reged: 26/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Pa, Montgomery County.
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: hipwr223]
      #166939 - 28/08/10 09:38 AM





Edited by CptCurl (28/08/10 01:10 PM)


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hipwr223
.224 member


Reged: 26/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Pa, Montgomery County.
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: hipwr223]
      #166940 - 28/08/10 09:38 AM

Sorry for the huge volume of pictures but several members requested additional photos so I figured I would just add them to the thread.

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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: hipwr223]
      #166942 - 28/08/10 01:31 PM

hipwr223,

Thank you for taking the time to show us the addition pics. It doesn't look like there are any initials on the barrels just aft of the forend lug but that interesting stamp on the foot of the bottom rib just forward of the barrel lugs may be just the thing to get moving on your ID question. The GGCA (German Gun Collectors Association) has a core group of research types such as Kuduae (Axel)and Raimey that have or have access to a great deal of information on the early European gunmakers and suppliers to the European gunmaking trade. There are already some theories as to which firms were producing the "clamshell" (MuzzelverSchluss - "musselshell") receivers and making their own guns as well as selling their receivers to other firms. It has been one of the more difficult mysteries to try to solve. The early German gun trade is full of such mysteries and we're always learning something new. If you're not a member of the GGCA already, check it out. You'll appreciate your new find even more when you learn more about where it came from. If you have the time to head up to the Vintagers / World Side-by-Side Championship and Double Rifle Championship in Queenstown, MD - Pintail Point September 23rd to 26th, the GGCA will have a booth there. Many members will be there and available to answer as many question as they can. There are also some scheduled "round table" discussions were members and non-members are welcome to take part or just listen. It's good stuff. OK, enough of the plug

When you get around to it, let us know how your gun shoots.

Regards,

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: Buchsemann]
      #166944 - 28/08/10 08:18 PM


Very very nice rifle indeed. If I ever were to get a 9.3x74 it would be a german style double like this one posted on this thread.

Thanks for sharing


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: rigbymauser]
      #166946 - 28/08/10 10:48 PM





Raimey,

This is an interesting gun. I think you are right it is a Facile Princips knockoff. With that design the action cocks as the result of levers articulating on the front barrel lump. I believe part of the mechanism is visible in the top photo. I also note the absence of cocking levers or rods protruding through the front of the bars. However, being a Facile Princips variant wouldn't make the action fat or pregnant looking.

So then I notice the mechanics in the action face just above and behind the rear lump. What is all that?

I also wonder about the extractor or ejector mechanism. There's unfamiliar hardware nestled in the barrel lumps.

Pardon my ignorance. Can anyone shed light on these mysteries?

Very interesting, indeed. Thanks,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: CptCurl]
      #166953 - 29/08/10 12:33 AM

Unique Action, and possibly Unique ejectors, comes to mind but I have to dig a bit to find a cutt-away or diagram.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: ellenbr]
      #166966 - 29/08/10 08:05 AM

Sauer double with circular extension on the standing breech




Hmm, "WB" filed up the frame. I wonder if that points to ole Willibald Barthelmes of Zella Saint Blasii??







Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (29/08/10 09:04 PM)


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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Double Rifle ID please [Re: ellenbr]
      #166995 - 30/08/10 03:13 AM

I'm not sure on the Unique: http://books.google.com/books?id=tgoMAAA...p;q&f=false

Viewing the components of the Facile Princep here, http://books.google.com/books?id=aMECAAA...p;q&f=false , it looks to be very similar: http://books.google.com/books?id=jMhMAAA...p;q&f=false

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse


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