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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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lawndart
.224 member


Reged: 09/05/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Idaho, USA
New Commercial NE Ammunition Project
      #164869 - 24/07/10 12:39 PM

G'day all,

Since the POMS shipped so many of their double rifles, game guns, falling blocks, and even the more interesting European magazine rifles to OZ, I believe there is a market there for over the counter ammunition for a smaller portion of the Kynoch (Kynamco), Westley Richards, H&H, and Purdey (most made by Wolfgang Romney) prices.

I am pursuing my R&D campaign with most of my waking hours. I will be offering Woodleigh (of course), North Fork (Awesome bullets), Banded Barnes (pretty decent stuff), Hornady and whatever (within reason) you desire. Part of getting an ammunition manufacturing license in the USA is that I am required to pay for an annual US State Department license for import/export of sporting ammunition, and approved military ammunition for our allies. Certain types of bullets (the Swift A-frame at times) have such a "hard" middle section that your precious rifle, new or old, can shoot off regulation in less than fifty rounds. I will only use bore rider technology, and bullets with outer jackets soft and deep enough to not bother the barrel on little whit. (one whit = 2 RCHs from a 25 year old Irish Lassie).

Initial calibers will be the usual suspects:

Magazine Rifle Cartridges:

376 Steyr (very underrated; bullets from 220 grains up to 300 grains).

375 H&H (Still a wonderful design; bullets from 220 grain up to 350 grains).

375 Weatherby (NOT that awful .378 monster, This is the 375 H&H with 150 yards more effective reach; bullets from 270 grain to 300 grains).

400 H&H (300 through 400 grain bullets, nominally .410" to .411". Either loading is easy to accommodate. This number will make any Pommie proud).

416 Rem Mag (350 grain through 400 grain bullets; loaded so that there will be no sticky ejection {or worse} up where the big bulls live.

416 Rigby (400 grain bullets {others on request}; one world, one rifle, 'eh?).

404 Jeffrey (The 404 Rimless Nitro Express; bullets from 300 grains to 400 grains {the original loading was 2,125 fps from a 28" barrel; that will be available}. Modern loadings will be ~ 2,225 fps for newer rifles - wonderfully capable and very comfortable to shoot.

458 Win Mag (Newer powders provide a true 2,150 fps with 500 grain bullets {cup and core type, that is}. No clumping of powder, no miss fires, no horror stories. We will be also loading the Woodleigh 480 grain soft and solid, and the wonderful North Fork soft and solid at 450 grains with some bonus velocity. The North Fork will penetrate deeper and straighter. It does not know what the word rivet means.

458 Lott (A new name for the 458 Watts. In any case, 500 grain quality bullets at 2,200 fps. Yes, Hornady allegedly loads this number up to 2,300+ fps, so what. At 2,200 fps the bullet will track straighter, and you can get off that second, insurance shot twice as fast. My reference for that statement is multiple conversations with PHs; they cringe when a tenderfoot shows up in elephant camp with full power Lott ammunition. This loading corrects some of the past sins of the 458 Win Mag without making more, and worse sins of its own.

450 Rigby (A natural progression up from the 416 class. I view this is as on the fence between a stopper and a hunter cartridge. The beauty is having lower pressures than the 458 Win Mag or the 458 Lott/Watts.)

505 Gibbs (Very satisfying cartridge to shoot. The 525 grain bullets will sort anything out with the correct placement, and this is an easy fit in a CZ 550 or BRNO 602. The 600 grain bullets will slow down your ability to put the next bullet in that rabid wallaby, maybe forget your name for a bit.

500 Jeffery (Rebated head so you can fit it into a standard M-98 of stout construction {with a large set of bottom metal, of course)

All of the above magazine cartridges are available in "introductory" loadings. Do not be a wanker and give a child or a Sheila a Nitro Express rifle with a full up load "just to try". I mean, WTH are trying to do? Idiotic. Let them try some very mild "baby bear" cartridges to start with. These are cheaper than the full power loadings due to cheaper bullets, and use of less expensive brass (if available), and much better than a divorce, or turning your brat into a non-hunter. The next level of power available will be our "practice" loads. Generally the bullet will weigh 3/4 of the full power projectile with nearly the same powder charge. The recoil is a step up, but manageable by most adults and many teenagers. This ammunition will again, be less than the full Monty loadings. Great for Sika, Red deer, Tahr, hogs, brombies, donkeys, will definitely smoke a camel, goat, Roo {on permit these days???) and so on.

The full power loadings will feature the best bullets available as stated above. Availability will be in five, ten or twenty packets, depending on cartridge size and expense. Any used cases can be mailed back to the US (pretty low cost these days. We will ultrasonically clean the cases, polish, form, trim, second polish and then anneal for low cost. We can then load these re manufactured/like new cases to any power loading you wish (depending on cartridge pressure and case condition).


OK Gents; The Good Stuff

5.7x52 Rimmed (22 Savage Hi Power, The Imp, etc.)

Rimmed European Loadings (6.5x57R, 6.5x65 R RWS, 6.5x68R, 7x57R, 7x65R, and on and on) This will not be the cheapest stuff out there, but it will come with RWS, Horneber, Norma, etc. brass. Topped with American or European bullets if you wish.

9,3x74 (250 grain, 286 grain and 320 grain bullets)

375 Flanged (Of course!)

450/400 3"

450/400 3 1/4"

450 NE (Still the best)

500/465

470 NE

500 NE 3"

500 NE 3 1/4"

I/WE know what regulates in many rifles (talk about an unending quest).
We will happily provide a "Kynoch" load, a "Hornady" load, or a Romney load. Better yet, we will be making try packs to get a North Fork, Barnes Banded, or whatever bullet you favor to regulate in your gun. Then, without any drama, we can provide you ammunition loaded for your rifle with no surcharge, but with your name and your rifles identifying information on the packet. We are working on getting a laser engraver to put the specific information on the cartridge case itself (without weakening the brass structure).

All cartridges are sealed at primer and bullet. We can even seal them in cans for the cupboard/root cellar. Once we have your exact double rifle load figured out, we will print the recipe on the packet.

We do not just stuff the case full of slow magnum powder and say, "go get 'em tiger." If possible, we use a medium rate powder, and the Kynoch wad system (except we have better wads). That cuts down on recoil significantly. If you transpose the burning curve from H-4831 onto Varget you will see precious little difference.

What I Am Asking From You All

Is at your leisure let me know what you want. If you have great loads for your rifles, magazine, double, vierlings, etc, etc. and are willing to share those, please forward them to me via PM, open reply here on Nitro Express or directly to me at lawndart@speedyquick.net Pictures are welcome.

When the R&D is done (done right, the first time, then ongoing), we will find an Australian and a New Zealand importer, mail order house. We want as few middlemen between the manufacturer (me and mine), and the shooter (you).

BTW, reading Graeme Wright's book helped stoke this fire in my belly for this undertaking.

I read the load section often, and appreciate everyone's generosity.

Edited by lawndart (24/07/10 12:50 PM)


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kamilaroi
.400 member


Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: lawndart]
      #164882 - 24/07/10 02:25 PM

The 404 J 300 grain pill sounds sweet as!

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Ben
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: kamilaroi]
      #164884 - 24/07/10 02:49 PM

When you get this project up-and-running, it'd be cool if you could also offer brass from the numerous makers in the USA. Good luck!

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40545
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: Ben]
      #164903 - 24/07/10 07:10 PM

I hope you get this project up and running.

Distributing some brass especially from the USA to Australia, would be great.

I think seeing your line up above, you will need to carry a lot of stock.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lawndart
.224 member


Reged: 09/05/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: NitroX]
      #164916 - 24/07/10 08:43 PM

Yeah, there will be a lot of stock, but what is cool is that the bullets and the cases will be mainly separate. With the dies set just right (and multiple die set ups at times), the recipes programmed and triple checked each time, I can combine, say a 458 Lott case and someone's bullet of choice, load, seal, triple QA check and on its way.

If the Bertram Brass continues to improve, then it may be a matter of getting the bullets over to Oz. You have great powders there, and even some primers that I cannot get here. So we set up a way to manufacture a wide range of ammunition right there.

Another example: Mannlicher rifles are used much more per capita there than in the US. It makes sense for me to make as much correctly sized shooting brass as possible to send over. With a swage some of the Woodleigh bullets can be sized to fit the bore of a given Mannlicher rifle. The correctly headstamped brass is more important for the traveling hunter. Those are more common in the US. I would go to the Mannlicher collector's meeting, or the German collector's meeting and lay out a huge display of all their dreams incorrectly labelled brass with RWS bullets and all that happy stuff.


I do want to get the cost of NE ammo down out of the stratosphere. Not everyone reloads. Many people who do reload really shouldn't be doing that. If they can buy some packets of practice ammo and then work up to full power for their "big" hunt, then great. I like the idea of re-manufacturing ammunition out of empty cases. Get them shot twenty times (at least with practice loads). Then you have a hunter who is familiar with his rifle, and can go out and be successful.

This is going to be expensive, and take much of my energy, but I think it is worthwhile. All the burning rates of powders, case capacities, bullet capabilities, primer brisance and the whole lot keep swirling around in my mind. It is do able.

Sooner or later, after all the proof of concept work is done, someone with a little $$ in their pockets will want in. Fine by me. The intellectual property stays in my head, so no one else can cheapen the concept to make a fast dollar.

Well off to bed, my Sheila flies home in a few hours.


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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2025
Loc: Denmark
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: lawndart]
      #164924 - 24/07/10 10:35 PM


Lawndart!.

Intersting project .

If I were to start an ammunition fabrication, I would start with all military present cartridges, and produce nitroexpress calibers on the sidelines. Its better to play on two horses than one only.
Nitro express calibers like .500, .470 ,.450 ,450/400 would sell. The military calibers will garanti a steady cashflow.


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40545
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: lawndart]
      #164927 - 24/07/10 10:51 PM

The vast number of double rifle big bore shooters probably don't shoot it enough to justify reloading. For that rifle alone anyway, but we would have the gear for everything else as well.

But the tremendously high cost of NE (and similar) ammo makes it a necessity in Oz at least.

Plus it simply isn't available anyway.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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ChrisPer
.300 member


Reged: 12/05/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Australia
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: NitroX]
      #164948 - 25/07/10 12:07 PM

Its a wonderful idea if you can manage the distribution part. In Australia, couriering ammo to the customer is possible but very costly for small shipments. In this thread someone said:

"$85 to send 100 rounds of 338 LM to Perth from Melb."

Edited by NitroX (25/07/10 07:57 PM)


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bwana1
.224 member


Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 3
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: ChrisPer]
      #164993 - 26/07/10 09:24 AM

500/416......................please!

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: bwana1]
      #165048 - 27/07/10 10:22 AM

Lawndart,

Best wishes on this new and very exciting venture! Please post regularly with details of your progress.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40545
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #165052 - 27/07/10 01:35 PM

Lawndart,

If you need assistance from NE, please let me know. Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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FrankMartinez
.300 member


Reged: 20/08/04
Posts: 111
Loc: The real Northern CA, USA
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: NitroX]
      #165367 - 01/08/10 03:01 PM

How about some relief here in the states as well. I cannot always reload when stuck traveling or living elsewhere. What about 303 with the 215 gr. anything. How about 577-450 lead and of course all the standards 450-400, 450#2, 500 BPE and 500 Nitro.
This would be a great deal here in the US as well.
Frank


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Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: FrankMartinez]
      #165375 - 01/08/10 06:19 PM

Lawndart, I would be very interested if you make some .500 NE reduced loads for practice, the problem seems to be exporting it. I spoke to Stars and Stripes in the US. They were happy to make the stuff for me and send it to Hollands in NY but they couldnīt get it out of there ?? Anyway, keep me up to date, best, Mike

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Rule303
.450 member


Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5221
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: New Commercial NE Ammunition Project [Re: lawndart]
      #165389 - 01/08/10 08:07 PM

G'day Lawndart,

this is a very good idea. I hope your endeavour is successful.

On the subject of Bertram brass. I was after some of Bruce's seconds in 416Rigby. As he did not have any he gave me 2 of his firsts. I am impressed. They are heavier than the Hornady brass and required minimal case prep before loading. I have yet to try them with identical loads to what I have in the Hornady brass to see if they throw to the same point at the same velocity.

I have sent you a PM with my 416Rigby loads to date.

Cheers
Greg


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