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twalker
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Reged: 23/07/10
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Loc: Southern California, USA
Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help
      #164836 - 24/07/10 04:46 AM

Hello All,

New guy with a question on my new "squirrel gun". I'm trying to figure out an approximate date on this Nimrod marked drilling and am having no luck. Any help would be appreciated. It's 16ga over 9.3x82r.

Thanks,

Terry













Edited by CptCurl (27/07/10 09:17 PM)

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GroovyMike
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: twalker]
      #164839 - 24/07/10 05:23 AM

I'm no help, but that is gorgeous.

--------------------
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

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twalker
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Reged: 23/07/10
Posts: 31
Loc: Southern California, USA
Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: GroovyMike]
      #164843 - 24/07/10 06:35 AM

Thanks Mike. Forgot to add that the shotgun barrels are marked on the sides with crown over N and 2g Sch.P N/A, but I can't find any nitro proof marks on the rifle barrel that I recognize.

tw

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ellenbr
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: twalker]
      #164846 - 24/07/10 07:46 AM

twalker:
The "Crown" over "N" 2 grams of Schultz(?) powder is a voluntary semi-smokeless proof. Very nice example with Witten tubes. With the "Nimrod Patent" stamp I assume the watertable is stepped? Can you confirm the initials forward of the forend lug are "F.H."? It has all the pre-1910, or pre-1912, proofmarks and more than likely it passed thru the Suhl proofhouse. Let me see if I can find any T&S serial numbers that have a date associated with them. Left tube is choked and right tube has less than 0.2mm of constriction. 9.3X82R is interesting.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

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twalker
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Reged: 23/07/10
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: ellenbr]
      #164847 - 24/07/10 07:58 AM

Yes, the watertable is stepped. The initials forward of the forend lug are "F.H."; sorry you can't see them clearly from the pictures. Thanks for the help Raimey. Just another shot of the metalwork.



Edited by CptCurl (27/07/10 09:18 PM)

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: twalker]
      #164848 - 24/07/10 08:16 AM

Terry:
Ah, I didn't pay close enough attention to the pics as I now see the stepped watertable. T&S 386xx was proofed in June of 1930. I'll have to see if I can find a few more to do a reverse projection. I'd guess bewteen 1905(not 1950-typeO) and 1912. Also I don't remember when the Nimrod patent was granted and how long it was enforce. I'd have to stare a bit longer and then defer to an engraving authority, but the Art Nouveau just might have been by Franz Keller. Is the serial 238xx? Does it have ejectors by chance?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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twalker
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: ellenbr]
      #164849 - 24/07/10 08:32 AM

Raimey,

The serial is 236XX. There's a number(7404) to the right of the "F.H." on the rifle barrel. I haven't fired it yet, but I think it just has extractors.

Thanks again,

tw

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m4220
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: twalker]
      #164860 - 24/07/10 10:12 AM

TW
DO you have ammunition for it or is even available or will you need to make from something else?

m4220

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kamilaroi
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: m4220]
      #164863 - 24/07/10 11:51 AM

Top shelf stuff.

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ellenbr
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: kamilaroi]
      #164868 - 24/07/10 12:35 PM

I could easily be mistaken but I believe it is called a Nimrod-Seitenschloss.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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twalker
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: ellenbr]
      #164871 - 24/07/10 12:58 PM

M4420, I'll have to make ammo for it. It's coming with dies and 20 pieces of brass, but I'll get the chamber cast and slug the bore to be safe. 16ga is new for me as well, so I'll get some Gamebore on order. I think that Reed's in Oklahoma City loads 9.3x72r with lead if that would work in a pinch.

Many thanks Raimey, and thanks to all for taking a look.

tw

Edited by twalker (24/07/10 01:03 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: twalker]
      #164922 - 24/07/10 10:09 PM

As this Drilling still sports the gauge number 118/35, indicating a bore diameter between 8.64 and 8.89 mm determined by the proofhouse, it was proofed in Suhl before April 1, 1911. The 9.3x82R Nimrod cartidge is commonly dated to 1905, so this gun may be dated 1905-1911.
"Nimrod", after the great hunter of the bible, was the trademark of Thieme & Schlegelmilch, Suhl.
The inscription "Nimrod Verschluss Patent" refers to the wedge-shaped reinforcements under the shot barrels that fit into recesses in the action bar. They prevent sidewais flexing of the barrel assembly on firing the rightor left barrel.
The "Nimrod" locks are regarded here in Germany as the most advanced form of side- or boxlocks. They were made by T&S both as sidelocks, trigger-plate (the rifle lock of your Drilling) and semi-boxlocks. On their sideplated boxlocks the lockparts were mounted on the frame under the sideplates, but were hand-removable after taking off the sideplates. Even a fitted mainspring-clamp was to be found in a recess under the sideplate! The Nimrod lockwork has two mechanical advantages over the "Usual" design:


The sear detent S'-A' is far away from the fulcrum of the hammer so there is much less pressure. Less obvious, but even more important: The linkage between mainspring and hammer forms a toggle joint that is almost straight when the lock is cocked, so the mainspring exerts little force on the cocked hammer. As the hammer falls, mainspring pressure constantly increases until the firing pin is hit. Both these features allow for a light trigger release without compromising safety.
9.3x82 Nimrod cases are available, sometimes, from Horneber.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (27/07/10 09:19 PM)

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ellenbr
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: kuduae]
      #164923 - 24/07/10 10:23 PM

Axle, I knew you'd have a pic of the lock and would be able to confirm the "Seitenschloß". Don't you mean April 1912 or do you think it passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proohouse? Either way, are there any proofmarks that lead you to believe it passed thru either one? I searched for a U.S. of A. patent but only found Ernst Schlegelmilch's 1880/1887 under #356378: http://www.google.com/patents?id=izRoAAA...p;q&f=false .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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twalker
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: ellenbr]
      #164934 - 25/07/10 03:05 AM

Thank you Axle. I'll check with Horneber for brass.

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Buchsemann
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: twalker]
      #164951 - 25/07/10 01:20 PM

twalker,

You found yourself a very nice and interesting drilling, beautiful artwork as well.

Raimey and Kuduae (Axle),

Great commentary.

Regards,

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: Buchsemann]
      #164971 - 25/07/10 08:03 PM

"9.3x82 Nimrod cases are available, sometimes, from Horneber. "

9.3x82R is a new cartridge to me. Excellent to see that Horneber may be able to supply brass.

I hope you can work out reloading date.

I love the engraving on the drilling. A lovely work of art.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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kuduae
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: NitroX]
      #164976 - 25/07/10 11:29 PM

Hi Raimey, as I have yet to see an official order as to when to replace the gauge numbers with mm ones, and all other sources seem to come from guesswork and contradict each other, I tend to date gauge numbers as "up to 1911" and mm numbers as "1912 to 1939". IMHO everithing else is like hairsplitting, though apparently the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse stated to use mm numbers about a year earlier than Suhl. But, from the introduction of the millimeter designations on, Z-M proofmarks can be distinguished from Suhl ones: For instance, a Mehlis marked 8x57R 360 falling block rifle is marked "7,7mm / 57 (case length) / 6.12 (June 1912)/ 51" and a 25-35 aka 6.5x52R Tell-type break open rifle "6,3mm / 52 / 3.36 / 534". I have seen those last numbers, here 51 and 534, but up to the 1200 range, only on rifles clearly traceable to Zella-Mehlis make and proof. My guess: these are sort of ledger numbers for the month of proof. So I think any rifle sporting such a number, even if marked and sold by a Suhl maker, was actually made and proofed in Z-M.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: kuduae]
      #165063 - 27/07/10 09:31 PM

twalker,

That is a superb and fascinating drilling. Top drawer for sure. Thanks for posting.

Raimey and Kuduae, my hat is off to both of you for sharing your vast knowledge of these German gems with us on these forums. It seems that specifics on early German firearms is terribly hard to find. You enrich us all with your observations.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: CptCurl]
      #165068 - 28/07/10 12:28 AM

It appears Bertram also makes brass for the 9.3x82R:

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/825

Can anyone supply the ballistics of this cartridge? Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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lancaster
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: NitroX]
      #165082 - 28/07/10 07:34 AM

the 9,3x82 started in the end of the 19. century as an update for the 9,3x72R. the 10mm longer case holding 1 gramm blackpowder more what was given an noticeable increase in velocity.
later nitro for black loads here in catalog were very similar to 9,3x72R nitro for black loads.




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (31/07/10 08:38 PM)

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heers68
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: lancaster]
      #165290 - 31/07/10 06:24 AM

What a great piece with true Master workmanship and engraving!! love it! Congrats!! Kevin.

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twalker
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: heers68]
      #165299 - 31/07/10 08:16 AM

Thanks to all for the help and information.

Regards,

tw

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ellenbr
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: twalker]
      #165671 - 04/08/10 04:50 AM

I've been looking for the following data and believe it to be from QuickLoad:

Patrone : 9.3 x 82 R (360)
Geschoss : .366, 193 grain, SEB SPFN 2951
Patronenlänge L6 : 3.335 inch or 84.71 mm
Lauflänge : 23.6 inch or 600.0 mm
Pulver : Vihtavuori N140

Tabelle mit abgstuften Ladungen
in Stufen von 1,0% der eingegebenen Nennladung

Diff Füll. Ladung v0 E0 Pmax Pmünd Abbrand D_Zeit
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10,0 69 37,80 1844 1457 17118 4229 81,2 1,751
-09,0 70 38,22 1863 1487 17516 4297 81,8 1,734
-08,0 70 38,64 1882 1518 17924 4366 82,3 1,717
-07,0 71 39,06 1901 1549 18341 4434 82,9 1,700
-06,0 72 39,48 1920 1580 18769 4503 83,5 1,683
-05,0 73 39,90 1939 1611 19206 4571 84,0 1,666
-04,0 73 40,32 1958 1643 19654 4639 84,5 1,649
-03,0 74 40,74 1977 1676 20112 4706 85,1 1,633
-02,0 75 41,16 1997 1708 20581 4774 85,6 1,617
-01,0 76 41,58 2016 1742 21061 4841 86,1 1,601
+00,0 76 42,00 2035 1775 21553 4908 86,6 1,585


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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twalker
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Re: Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling help [Re: ellenbr]
      #165730 - 05/08/10 06:26 AM

Thanks Raimey. I picked up a copy of John Stransky's article on the 9.3x72r (Handloader #149 Feb 1991) but it didn't have any data on Vihtavuori N140.

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