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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
20 ga DR build progress.
      #162146 - 16/06/10 03:38 AM

Hello all,

Well this kind of got started here:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=151426&an=0&page=0#Post151426

I had an Idea to make a set of conversion tubes modeled after a set from Tanfoglio.
Upon further investigation, I ended up deciding to go for it and convert a 16 ga to a 20 ga DR.
This thread will serve as a build thread for those interested.

Progress:

Pair of 20ga fully rifled blanks 27" long 1 3/16" OD - Funds sent pending shipping.
Stock picked and I'll take it said, it is with the Smith so payment will be included in the final bill.
Forearm Blank sourced - Paid, awaiting shipping to Smith.
Donor Gun, awaiting pictures of 2 candidates, FN 16ga SXS (No other info yet), Simson 16ga SXS Greener cross bolt, dual underlugs Anson & Deely action, Side Clips and Dual triggers.

Below are pictures of the wood.






The plan is:

26" Barrels.
3" chambers
Single rear Express sight ( Dakota, NECG or Racknagel )
Fibre bead front (Red) (Racknagel or NECG )
1/4 Rib with Talley QD bases milled in.
English Walnut stock in classic english shadow line cheek piece.
Semi beaver tail forearm.
Case color hardened reciever.
Steel grip cap. ( Case colored )
Pacmyer Decelerator old english pad ( Black )
Stock and rib mounted swivels.

Well that is it for now. I will keep you updated as it progresses.

Cheers
Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by CptCurl (27/07/10 08:59 PM)

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162198 - 17/06/10 04:36 AM

Update 6/16/2010

Donor action has been identified, SPF.
German made Simson 16ga SXS Anson & Deely BoxLock Non-Ejector.
Deely fore latch, side clips dual underlugs and Greener cross bolt.
Nitro proved 12/70 Aug 1956 manufacture.
Here are some pictures:








Well we have wood, action, barrels and desire.
The smith will be sourcing the other stuff ( Pad, studs, sights, ribs etc. )
So I will post updates as they become available.
I hope to be using it for deer season Nov 15th.

Cheers
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by CptCurl (27/07/10 09:00 PM)

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162234 - 17/06/10 11:54 PM

What are you going to chamber it in? My brother made me a converted 20 gauge in .405 WCF.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: bonanza]
      #162237 - 18/06/10 01:52 AM

Bonanza,

20 ga 3" fully rifled.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162302 - 19/06/10 12:57 AM

Quite a project nitro450exp - the results will be fun to shoot & hunt with. Now the work begins. That is a precious pre-carved yon've got for it. Although the grain structure of the forewood doesn't look exactly right in a board, in a normal forend, it will be be just about perfect. Good choice.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #162303 - 19/06/10 02:40 AM

Daryl

You know what comes next, a bunch of questions about slug and RB loads for a 20ga.
Get ready !

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162324 - 19/06/10 10:11 AM

Nitro450exp,
Here is my two cwents worth. I have done a couple of conversion to 20 gauge rifled. I cut the chambers for three inch shells just as you are going to do, but I found that the 2 3/4 inchers gave me everything I needed ballisticly and are more accurate. I use handcast Lyman hourglass shaped slugs in AA shot wads and cases. I have tried both types of crimps, the rolled ones looked neater but I have had a problem with the very front of the loaded shells being a little too tight to go in easily. I think it is because I shortened the cases before loading by cutting off most of the old folded crimp. If I had a tool to scive the case mouths a little thinner, then I don't think I would have this problem. After trying both, I found that the folded crimps shoot at least as well as the roll crimped ones. Bob H.

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Al_in_Mi
.224 member


Reged: 08/01/06
Posts: 26
Loc: Michigan
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #162425 - 20/06/10 05:23 PM

what twist are those 20ga blanks?

If your looking for some full bore solid slugs

http://www.reloadersauction.com/100176,owner_id,other_items

There is a place out east called CCS (Collet Cup Sabot) they make a 20ga sabot for 45cal bullets also.

http://members.fortunecity.com/emmyoung/id2.htm

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Al_in_Mi]
      #162451 - 21/06/10 01:20 AM

Al

I am familliar with reloaders austion, I use Turbo1889's 12ga slugs and intend on using his 20 ga version also.
I do not know the twist, I asked the smith to measure it for me, but the barrels are in transit.
I have to resize the 12ga ones so I will order a sizer die for the 20ga ones if I have to.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162471 - 21/06/10 08:08 AM

Lyman's books cover them - I'll look them up if you'd like & PM. Slower powders will be on the menue, I'd guess - prebably Blue Dot, SR4756, Herco, Unique, Longshot(Hodgdon might have some slug data). I suspect Lyman will list herco, SR4756 and Blue Dot - maybe H or IMR4227 - maybe not.

personally, I am against sabots and will not use them, except perhaps the Lyman Sabots which shoot large diameter bullets, not undersized ones. I cannot see using a 12 bore and shooting .50 cal bullets, or even .58 cal. It's a 12 and I want the advantage of shooting a 12 bore projectile.

A 20 bore might use a .59 or maybe .58 I suspect, in the Lyman slug, which 'just' fits inside a normal shot cup. That I could use, but not a .45 or .50 cal. I've got rifles that small for shooting those sizes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #162519 - 22/06/10 12:53 AM

Daryl.

I have the Lyman 5th Ed.
I will look at the 20 ga slug loads and see what combinations they use.
I really need to get some slugs from Turbo, and weigh them, and see what to do.
I agree with you on the Sabots, may as well shoot full bore.
I am trying to decide the regulating load for this gun and think that factory ammo is a must.
Any thought on what is the largest bore sabotted slugs in factory load.
I was thinking the buckhammer Remmies, no one really makes full bore slugs anymore.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162575 - 23/06/10 12:28 AM

I am not familiar with what the various companies are flogging now.
As to full bore slugs, the Fosters are a washout for anything but little deer as far as I'm concerned. They expand to rapidly and lack weight. I'd much rather shoot balls.
The Lyman Sabots which are almost full bore & use field wads would be about the smallest sabot'd slug I'd use.

Round balls are too easy to not use them. Also, they can be of any alloy, and therefore penetrate as well or better than any soft slug.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #162579 - 23/06/10 02:29 AM

Daryl

For resale and general desirability I want to regulate with factory ammo,
which basically means sabots. Not that I am planning to sell.
I will ofcourse develop my own slug and RB loads for my own purposes.
I probably will never shoot the factory ammo except once in a while.
I don't know that the smith will be super keen on regulating the gun with experimental home
brew loads, as most RB and Full bore slugs without published data are considered.

Regards
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162584 - 23/06/10 07:23 AM

Experimental?


No need to go into the dark woods alone, have Tom Armbrust run whatever load you want to use through his pressure gun system and get the straight dope on what your load is worth.

That's THE way to know for double damn sure what pressures your handloads are doing.
There is no good reason to avoid that step in your process.
Tom is a great guy, and his work is credible and respected.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: tinker]
      #162627 - 23/06/10 10:46 PM

Tinker.

I did say experimental = loads based on surrogate data with a logical progression and suitable safety margin built in, having said that I do not know a gunsmith willing to risk digits on my expertise. I on the other hand " pun intended" I will.
Did I mention " I Are Engineeer " all gramatical and mispelling intended.
Since published and proof tested data is far and few between for the custom mold and RB I intend to use, I will just get it regulated for factory ammo.
I will work up my own loads looking for signs of pressure and shooting over a chrony.
Once I have a good load I may contact the gentleman you mention to truly find out what my loads are doing.

Thanks for the input and useful resource.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162629 - 23/06/10 11:20 PM

If there is a factory slug that runs in the 1,500 to 1,600 fps range, and weighs in the neighbourhood of 320 to 380gr., that would be a good one to regulate for. It will make working up your own loads with balls or slugs easier, I'd guess.
Considering in 'bore' rifles, 20 is a small bore, perhaps some sort of heavier than ball slug will be best. Balls run in the 320gr. range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #162633 - 23/06/10 11:58 PM

Daryl

The guy who I buy my balls and slugs from, I do not want to cast myself,
Makes a 0.627" RB that is pretty close to 350 grains, so Lyman slug data is a good staring point.
He also makes a "Hammer head slug " from a custom mold 0.618" and 0.625" that weigh 1 0z. (440 grains )This is most likely what I will do most of my shooting with.
I will have to develop a load for this, since most surrogate slug data does not go higher than 350 grains.
This is where I will ahve to use surrogate brenneke data or heavy field load lead shot data and work up watching for pressure and velocity.

I think that I will buy some factory ammo and do a little investigation, through disassembly.
In the hopes of finding the largest (Close to full bore) heaviest slug to do the regulation with.
That way if I am forced to use factory ammo it will be the closest to my loads and as you have said why shoot sub caliber bullets in a big bore gun.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162660 - 24/06/10 12:25 PM

If in doubt - always start with a like-weight, high velocity, low pressure shot load and go from there, which uses a slow (for the gauge) burning powder.
A chronograph will be MOST useful.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #162781 - 26/06/10 01:55 AM

Update 6/25

According to Fedex the packages will be picked up today.
There was a shipping exception, whatever that means.
So the smith put them on hold and will go to the depot,
and he will inspect them before taking reciept.

I look forward to his report and hope all is well.
I really do not want to deal with a stolen or damaged gun and Fedex.

Well I will keep you all posted.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162815 - 26/06/10 10:25 AM

Well got an email, all is well.
No damage to gun or blanks, now the real work begins.
Smith will do full teardown and report on the Simson.
He will measure the blanks for bore and land diameters.

I have sent him a deposit to get started.

So the fun begins.

nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by nitro450exp (27/06/10 12:13 AM)

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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
Posts: 256
Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162829 - 26/06/10 01:46 PM

Glad to here this. It's "gonna" be great!!!

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #162892 - 28/06/10 03:24 AM

Update 6/27

Good news.
Gun has arrived it is an as good as shape as when it shipped.
Bad news.
It is 0.003" off face, so we will be rejoining it, a cost I was not planning for.

The barrel blank info:

8 Lands
1:24" twist, I am assuming RH.
0.615" Lands
0.620" Bore

All original internals no signs of tampering, decent remaining colors.
all in all very good except the off face.

Cheers
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by nitro450exp (28/06/10 09:43 PM)

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162898 - 28/06/10 09:15 AM

Quote:

Update 6/27

Good news.
Gun has arrived it is an as good as shape as when it shipped.
Bad news.
It is 0.003" off face, so we will bw rejoining it, a cost I was not planning for.

The barrel blank info:

8 Lands
1:24" twist, I am assuming RH.
0.615" Lands
0.620" Bore

All original internals no signs of tampering, decent remaining colors.
all in all very good except the off face.

Cheers
Nitro



Hmmm - You mean the bore is .615" and the groove diameter is .620" = .005" divided by 2 = .0025" depth of rifling?
That's quite shallow!

The bore is the samllest diamter, while groove to groove is the largest. In this instance, land height is .0025", ie; 2 1/2 thousanths.

Might have to use proepr sized balls - or, the plastic cup and ball method.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #162927 - 28/06/10 10:22 PM

Daryl

I was always under the impression that the "Bore" was the Major diameter and the size of the bullet fired. ie in a 470 NE the bore is 0.475" and that is the size bullet fired.
The "Lands" or rifeling stands proud of the bore and engrave the bullet and the tops of the lands form a circle, Minor diameter.
I agree with you that the bore can also be refered to as the Groove diameter.
Maybe I have been wrong all this time.

The point is I agree that the rifeling is not very deep and at 2 1/2 Thou I will defenitely be planning on shooting slightly oversized balls and right sized slugs.
I will be ordering a custom sizer die that will allow me to size my slugs to the exact bore size.
They are currently coming out of a custom mold that throws them at 0.618" and 0.625", 2 cavities.

Well there is only one way to find out, and that cant happen for a few months.

Thanks
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162938 - 28/06/10 11:56 PM

A little history, hope you don't mind.

As .615" are the 'bore diameters, ie: tops of the land to land dimension, they are true 20 bore barrels as 20 bore is .615" which equates to a pure lead ball of 350gr. at that diameter. 7000gr. divided by 20 (bore) = 350gr. which happens to be .615" in diameter.

Most European and some English ctg. are named for the bore size ie: 256 Dutch Man. (6.5 groove), .276 Mauser (.284 groove), .303 British (bore size), .350 Rigby (bore size).375 Axite and H&H -(groove diameter). Naming by bore dsize was a hold-over from naming by bore size back in the muzzleloading era. A .45 cal. rifle could have .008" to .025",. yet was still called a .45, not a .466 cal.(.450 with .008" rifling) nor a .50 cal. (.450 + .025" rifling) because a .450" ball was the bore size.

The American method was naming ctgs. by either bore size or groove size - rather sloppily at that, ie: .308 Winchester (groove), .300 Savage(bore), .300 magnum (Bore), .375's(groove), .358's, .450 Watts (bore) and .450 Lott(bore) .458 magnum (groove)

Bore diameter was that size and weight of round ball that would just fit in the bore - a 12 bore rifle (nominally .729/.730" bore @ 583.3gr. ball ) could have up to a .750" groove diameter for .010" rifling.

Back in the patched round ball era with muzzleloaders, a 12 bore shot a 13 bore ball to make room for a 'substancial patch", a 14 bore would shoot a 15 ball, etc, so a 4 would shoot a 5 bore ball.

With breechloaders and rifled barrels shot without cloth patches and not having to have undersized projectiles, they were able to go the other way - all gauges would shoot balls that were groove diameter - so a .010" rifling depth 12 bore would shoot an 11 ball, ie: .750" or with shallower rifling, whatever size fit the grooves, sometimes to the bottom, but often only partically engraved still shot just fine.

Thus, we must slug our barrels to ensure we aren't shooting projeciles too large. A bit too small doesn't hurt the rifling in low volume shooting & can be accurate, however a hard ball (round or elongated) that is larger than groove diameter could if shot in thin barrels.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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