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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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blackbearhunter
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
458vs450marlinvs45-70
      #16143 - 24/06/04 02:00 AM

Can I load my 458 down to 450&45-70 class loads?

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
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Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16145 - 24/06/04 03:02 AM

Very easly. See www.reloadersnest.com


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: bonanza]
      #16146 - 24/06/04 03:07 AM

Did you get my load for the TUG 180 grain bullet that was used to regulate your 30/06?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: bonanza]
      #16149 - 24/06/04 03:53 AM

Yes bonanza,and thanks a lot for all your help with the 30-06.I got a great deal on a 458 ruger yesterday and fired it with the federal 350gr.ammo at about 2500fps i think it said on the box.The little rifle handles like a charm and comes up perfectly,but kickes stright back hard.It weights 9# I think and i hate to put a brake or change it around yet.I will be plinking/varmint mostly but would take it after bear&wild boar that can run over 400# where i hunt.If i can down load that speed maybe I can Tame the recoil down some.Will the 458magnum shoot the 300Gr.ammo also?What does one do to keep away from the hangfires?Will cutting the 2500fps back to 2000 help all that much
in the recoil department?
Thanks

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16152 - 24/06/04 05:30 AM

You will be able to reduce the felt recoil by shooting a 300 grain bullet. I've check the reloaders nest and they have some cast bullet loads. Check out http://www.blacklionbullet.com/bullets.htm for some cast options. These should be pretty mild to shoot.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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blackbearhunter
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: bonanza]
      #16169 - 25/06/04 03:18 AM

My old 1980 hornady reloading book states that I can load the 350gr.RN to 2100fps with RL-7 powder.That is the lowest load they show,will I be safe to start there & will I be safe from the hangfires?It doesnt say to put cotton or paper or anything to compress the charge?When do reloaders have to do that with the big bore rounds?Also what is the thresh hold for the detached retnis & punchy drunk feelings I have read about?Like I said earlier this is all new ground for me.I think the rear felt recoil is more because of the number#1 design.I feel a bolt action would not be as bad.The ruger#1 really feels light weight to me,the only weight it has is the big heavy barrel IMO.As long as I stay with the lowest recommended load I should be safe with out a filler right?There should be no blow up danger with a hang fire?Also if i go to a 45-70 300gr. type varmint/Plinker bullet load, I should go with a bullet factory reloading manualrecommended charge for the 458 win.mag.& not just someones word on the internet right?Does anyone know which bullet & loading manual I should try to find that has these low grain bullet loads in the 458WIN.?Just trying to get steered in the right direction with this forums help,I dont knoe anyone who shoots or reloads the 458win.Magnum.All my friends shoot the 45-70 Quigley down unders!Should I be able to shoot like Quigley with the 458winchester when I get her under control?Seems Like she will shoot like a house on fire if i can get that maidens caress under control!!!!
Thanks for all your help big bore brothers......


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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16171 - 25/06/04 04:16 AM

There's no getting around the fact that 458 is going to recoil. Sticking with the 300 and 350 RN bullets at 2300 to 2400 fps the recoil should be mild. I used to have a 45/70 in the light sporter (7 lbs) and with max (405 at 2150 fps) the recoil was brutal. Howerver, when I steped it down to orginal 45/70 loads and a 300 bullet, it was a joy.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: bonanza]
      #16177 - 25/06/04 05:41 AM

Hey bonanza,I gotta get a reloader for the double 30-06 so I figure I will reload the 458 also.I just never messed with a caliber that can hangfire.I always just loaded a 30-06 in the past.I know what you mean about the stiff recoil!
The 458 in the federal 350gr. was getting there pretty good.I found the recoil calculater on internet & punched in some different speeds & powder charges & got a big differance in recoil in just 500fps.I drop about 10# in kick recoil!
I know a shooter has to feel up to getting pounded also,and I knew i didnt feel like shooting the other day but just had to try the new rifle.I just dont want to geta flinch!I feel the lower speed will help.Are the factory recoil pads on the rugers pretty good ones or should I go ahead and upgrade?Are they the same on the ruger#1 as the 77 458lott express rifle?I do like the solid pads looks better than the ventilated.The ruger#1 pad seems kinda thin.Any suggestions on magna porting?Port or not port?I always HEARD that they would mess up your HEARING.Seems like a lot of the 460wby& up rifles have it though.Would Magna porting devalue the rifle?I read it only takes out 20 percent of the recoil.That aint a whole lot?Doesnt all the 50bmg rifles have porting also?I think this is going to be another fun project........


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blackbearhunter
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16211 - 25/06/04 11:53 PM

From reading other post I figure it like this for comparison...
The Hornady reloader book shows the winchester 458 with a 350gr.bullet at 2100fps.to 2500fps...
The .404 Jeffery used a 400Grn.bullet at 2125fps. for 4020Ft.Lbs.Muzzle Energy and a 300GR. load went 2625fps. for 4595Ft.Lbs>Muzzle energy.....
The 450 marlin Factory Hornady round has 2100fps.,muzzle energy3427ft.lbs., with a 350gr.bullet....
The Hornady reloader book shows the 45-70 with a 350gr. bullet at 1700fps. to 2200fps......
The 375H&H is listed at 300gr.bullet is 2300fps to 2600fps....
The 404 jeffery is about the same as the 375H&H with the 300gr.bullets....Speed wise!!!Right???Recoil should all be close to the same in all these loads?

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16215 - 26/06/04 01:14 AM

Blackbear,

I think you are worring the recoil to death. Here are a few facts:

1. Bullet weight makes the biggest difference in recoil. Stay with 300-350 and you'll be fine with your 9 lbs. ruger #1.

2. Recoil pads really don't help much. Stick with the rubber pad on your ruger and hold the gun tightly against you shoulder.

3. Shoot from the kneeling position. Your moment arm is less, so your body motion is reduced.

4. Work up to heavy loads. You need to train you body and mind.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: bonanza]
      #16216 - 26/06/04 01:24 AM

Thanks for your help.Its all been a new learning experince.Just trying to learn something new.....

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blackbearhunter
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: 458vs450marlinvs45-70 [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16238 - 26/06/04 10:22 PM

Found what I was looking for in a old american Rifleman test done in june 2000.They compared all the .458 size rounds with the 450marlin hornady bullet 350Gr.Flat point design loaded in the 45-70,450marlin,458wm.They shot em in water jugs and the 450 went thru 6,the 45-70 went thru5 & the 458wm 4 .The 458wm was going so fast for the bullet design it just blew it up.Looks like they all flew really flat out to about 150 yards.The article said the 450 marlin was designed after the.458x2American wildcat by frank c. barnes,and the450 alaskan byHarold Johnson,The ballistics of the 450 marlin fall between the 45-70 and the 458win.mag.Pressure is in the mid-40,000p.s.i. range.

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