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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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9dot3x74R
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/10
Posts: 97
Loc: Tasmania
Shooting a double over a rest
      #159679 - 29/04/10 02:48 PM

I have read, many times and in many places, about the correct way to shoot a double rifle over a rest, i.e. only the shooter should come in contact with the rifle.

However......

I found this picture in the Merkel propaganda material (the sales brochure), and yes it is a drilling I think.....



...... but I also found some video of the test person shooting a double over a rest, then re regulating (re-soldering), and then re-shooting over a rest again. It clearly shows them using the rest in the same way that a benchrest shooter would. It is towards the end of this video (about 1 minute from the end if you want to FF through it)....

Quicktime: http://www.merkel-usa.com/media/Videos/ImageClip_med.mov

WMV: http://www.merkel-usa.com/media/Videos/ImageClip_med.wmv (for those without a proper computer)

Thoughts, anyone?

--------------------
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
It arrived !!!


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Lix
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Reged: 14/02/10
Posts: 59
Loc: Aust, Tas, Hobart
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #159681 - 29/04/10 05:13 PM

Are you still shooting high Phil?

Pick up my .35 Whelen next week. Not a double but there you go.

Alex

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404bearslayer
.300 member


Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: Lix]
      #159694 - 29/04/10 09:43 PM

Holland & Holland do regulation over a rest likewise: They are standing, the rifle is resting on a pad, left hand cradling the rifle behind the pad, and the elbows are resting on a lower support behind the rest for the rifle. The shooter leans forward into this construction.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #159696 - 29/04/10 10:04 PM

Any of my guns that have much recoil at all, must be held in both hands, resting the back of my left hand on the front bag, but holding the gun tightly, as if offhand shooting at game. This gives identical POI as offhand shooting.
To rest the gun itself on the bag, ie: BR fashion, is to open groups and to shoot high.
My little Savage Weather Warrior .375 shoots 3 1/4" high and 1" to the right if shot in BR fashion.

edited - I should have mentioned I have to shoot my double muzzleloader as noted above or it crossed 1 1/2" and shoots different elevations x 1 1/2" as well. A 'hard' hold is necessary to make it regulate 3/4" to 1" apart at 50 yards.
I hold similarly to 404bear, except the left hand is rested on the bag.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (30/04/10 02:18 AM)

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404bearslayer
.300 member


Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: DarylS]
      #159697 - 29/04/10 10:23 PM


Not in the case of my Holland & Holland .470 NE. It makes no difference in shooting off-hand standing or shooting the rifle over a rest while standing, absolutely zero. And I shoot my gun well enough by now to confirm this (off-hand my groups are between 1 and 3 inches when I take my time aiming, over a rest a consistent 1.5 inches) I get absolutely identical results - there is even not much difference when putting a scope on. And there shouldn't be, as manufacturers clearly regulate with the rifle resting on a pad. I have a picture of how Holland & Holland regulate doubles and will post it.

However, when shooting seated, regulation changes dramatically, irregardless of whether the gun rests on a pad or on ones hands. Obviously, how the body reacts to the recoil (seated versus standing) makes a difference, not whether the gun rests on the left hand or a pad. Having the rifle on a rest, rather then sitting in the left hand which then sits on the rest makes for a more consistent set-up, that's why manufacturers regulate like that. Picture of Holland & Holland regulation shooting to follow.

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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #159698 - 29/04/10 10:39 PM


Holland & Holland double rifle regulation shoot:




Edited by 404bearslayer (29/04/10 10:41 PM)

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #159699 - 29/04/10 11:03 PM

Hard to imagine shooting a double rifle with just the tip of the finger like that, with no firm grip on the stock. I wonder what the trigger pull weight might be.

Shooting a right handed rifle left handed must not be a treat either.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: xausa]
      #159701 - 29/04/10 11:28 PM

Quote:

Hard to imagine shooting a double rifle with just the tip of the finger like that, with no firm grip on the stock. I wonder what the trigger pull weight might be.

Shooting a right handed rifle left handed must not be a treat either.



Perhaps the rifle is built left handed and hes right handed, would be much harder shooting it that way.

But i think the photo is between barrels and hes moving the finger back.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: 450_366]
      #159702 - 30/04/10 12:04 AM

Xausa,

an overly firm grip (with the hand that supports the rifle) is neither needed on a well-balanced (and typically heavy) double rifle, nor is it a good idea as it is detrimental to precision shooting. The gun needs to be firmly pressed into the shoulder by the trigger hand while the supporting hand (typically the left) should grip the gun as lightly as possible. The more force you apply on the supporting hand, the more it influences your shooting, which is difficult to keep consistent from shot to shot. All you want to do is to mount the gun the same way each time (keep the stance consistent also - this is overlooked by many people), and to keep the pressure of the butt into your shoulder consistent from shot to shot. If you apply an overly firm grip on the left hand bejond that, you introduce another variable that needs to be kept consistent from shot to shot. Obviously, you do not want to loose control of the rifle. To test this, I have shot my heaviest .470 loads (500 grain bullet at 2280 f/s) from a rest without using the left hand at all. As long as my right hand was firm (and rifle butt firmly in the shoulder) that was no problem, and so I knew I could keep the grip of my left hand as light as I wanted to. Takes a bit getting used to as the natural instinct is to hold powerful rifles firmly. I have found that my double shot like a precision rifle once I started treating it like one.

Edited by 404bearslayer (30/04/10 07:33 AM)

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #159703 - 30/04/10 12:06 AM

404bearslayer is 100% correct in his points.

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xausa
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Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #159709 - 30/04/10 02:33 AM

Quote:

The gun needs to be firmly pressed into the shoulder by the trigger hand while the supporting hand (typically the left) should grip the gun as lightly as possible.



Although I didn't make it clear, I was referring to the lack of a firm grip with the shooting hand (in this case, the left one).

The shooter seems to be shooting from the wrong side, since there appears to be an outline of a cheekpiece on the side of the buttstock nearest the camera.

Judging from the furrowed brow, the shooter seems to be anticipating the recoil, rather from simply moving his finger from one trigger to the other.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: xausa]
      #159711 - 30/04/10 03:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The gun needs to be firmly pressed into the shoulder by the trigger hand while the supporting hand (typically the left) should grip the gun as lightly as possible.



Although I didn't make it clear, I was referring to the lack of a firm grip with the shooting hand (in this case, the left one).

The shooter seems to be shooting from the wrong side, since there appears to be an outline of a cheekpiece on the side of the buttstock nearest the camera.

Judging from the furrowed brow, the shooter seems to be anticipating the recoil, rather from simply moving his finger from one trigger to the other.



Still think he is between shots, and i never seen a rifle with a cheekpiece where he has his.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: 450_366]
      #159712 - 30/04/10 03:23 AM

I don't think I have ever seen anyone shoot a Double like that. He seems much to far back on the stock and already seems to be flinching. Is he the regulator for Holland or the customer?

If he is the regulator I'm sure he is a better shot than I am and maybe I am doing things wrong. I also have noticed a definite difference in poi between sitting and standing.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: mickey]
      #159722 - 30/04/10 05:18 AM


In my limited experience heavy recoil rifles are more forgiving to the way it is hold.
On low recoil rifles with slow bullets like the muzzleloaders stance is crucial.
I tryed some time ago to shot from the bench forcing my stance (straight up). The result was that it made two groups, as I return to my usual stance.
JMHO
Martin

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: beleg2]
      #159723 - 30/04/10 05:27 AM

Steve is left handed but obviously most rifles he regulates are for right handers, rgds, Mike (I presume it is Steve)

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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #159725 - 30/04/10 06:43 AM

Answer to Daryl and Beleg2 (as they both might pertain to stance):

Daryl, the reason why you might get different results with shooting your guns on a rest, versus your hands on a rest, (I assume you are standing in both cases), might be because you unconsciously assume a different stance when you shoot what you call benchrest style: The 1' to the right and 3' inches high relative to POI sounds familiar to me, as I kept getting this result consistently when first shooting my double, irrespective of whether I used a rest or not.

Well, in the very beginning I was shooting .470 factory ammunition over my Africa sticks and assumed a completely square stance doing that, which I then also used for shooting off-hand. The strange change in POI puzzled me, as regulation pertaining to tight groupings was perfect, and as I doubted that the iron sights were misaligned by Holland & Holland. For a while I thought this might be a result of the sun hitting the iron sights in a bad angle as I was usually shooting outdoors in the same spot around the same time. It was the same in the shooting range however, and I had already considered changing the sights.

Well, after a while I started reloading for my double, and as I like powerful loads I concocted some which approach a .500 NE in energy levels. Of course, the recoil went up as well, and my square stance was so unstable in regard to those loads that the recoil almost put me on the floor. So I changed my stance to completely sideways - and guess what, I was shooting low and to the left (also with the factory ammunition). It took me while to actually figure out what the reason for those changes in POI really was and to find the stance that worked with my gun. Let me just say that I now shoot with a half-open stance (similar to shotgun / Weaver stance) and my POI is right where it should be - square on where I aim.

So, for everyone who is puzzled with an incorrect POI, while otherwise shooting tight, well-regulated groups, it might be a good idea to open / close the stance to see whether that might make a difference. And as Daryl rightly commented, a 'hard' grip will have some influence as well. If the gun was regulated with a hard grip, then it might quite possibly be necessary to replicate that hard grip. For my Holland & Holland, a 'soft' grip and a half-open stance were right on the money, for other guns that might be different. So Daryl's observed difference in regulation when shooting off a rest relative to holding the gun on the rest might not be the fault of the rest (or an incorrect stance), but the fact that his gun needs a hard grip, irregardless of what it is resting on.

Edited by 404bearslayer (30/04/10 07:29 AM)

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Dutch44
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Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #159727 - 30/04/10 06:58 AM

I concur with Bearslayer as well. This applies to air-rifles, .22's or 600 NE's.



Dutch

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: Dutch44]
      #159733 - 30/04/10 07:36 AM

Also if the rest under the forearm us U shaped or flat makes a difference.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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bwananelson
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Re: Shooting a double over a rest [Re: 450_366]
      #159743 - 30/04/10 10:50 AM

i just used the rest and did great with my over and under a firm bag or firm hand can the gun tell.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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