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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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GK
.300 member


Reged: 29/10/09
Posts: 161
Loc: Adelaide
Modern 9x57mm?
      #159522 - 26/04/10 11:19 AM

Hypothetically speaking, if one to build a new rifle in 9x57 could you do so by using a .358 barrel instead of the original .356?
Would you be able to use 9x57 dies or would custom ones be required.
Lastly is there much benefit over the 8x57?

Anyone have some real 9x57 velocities as most books make it sound like a weak version of a .358W, but in my mind it should be a little better?

George

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Modern 9x57mm? [Re: GK]
      #159527 - 26/04/10 12:08 PM


From my perspective, if you were going to jump up a little bit you might as well go to 9.3 x 62. more bras, more bullets and can be downloaded a bit if needed.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Modern 9x57mm? [Re: GK]
      #159535 - 26/04/10 03:16 PM

I have in my possession a Westley Richards sporter, originally in 8X57, with a shot out barrel. I had it rebored to .358" and chambered to 9X57, so if I can get my chronograph cooking after a long period of inactivity, I should be able to answer that question.

The barrel had been shortened when I acquired it, for no good reason I can ascertain, and a new, inappropriate (too high) front sight fitted. The action, however, an original Oberndorf commercial model, is untouched.

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Schauckis
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Reged: 17/07/07
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Loc: Finland
Re: Modern 9x57mm? [Re: GK]
      #159552 - 27/04/10 12:38 AM

Quote:

Lastly is there much benefit over the 8x57?

George



Good question - I've been pondering the same regarding the 8,2x53R v. 9,3x53R and I've come to the conclusion that "no".
Reasoning: As they use the same case, the velocity of the heavier bullet of the 9,3mm does not allow meaningful enough velocities. The difference in bullet diameter being but 1,1mm (.323" v. .366") the difference probably too great considering the higher velocity of the 8,2mm bullet.

However: with modern powders, one may be able to make the 9,3x52R (and 9x57, for that matter) buffalo-legal. It'd be pushing it and the only real reason for me to do this would be to enable a reliably feeding switch-barrel set-up on my take-down Winchester m/1895.

So unless you have a good reason to make a 9x57 (e.g. "it'd be nice to have one"), I'd probably also go down the route of the 9,3x62 instead.

- Lars/Finland

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Modern 9x57mm? [Re: GK]
      #159553 - 27/04/10 01:08 AM

Quote:

Hypothetically speaking, if one to build a new rifle in 9x57 could you do so by using a .358 barrel instead of the original .356?
Would you be able to use 9x57 dies or would custom ones be required.
Lastly is there much benefit over the 8x57?

Anyone have some real 9x57 velocities as most books make it sound like a weak version of a .358W, but in my mind it should be a little better?

George



In a modern action, the 9x57 will duplicate the .358 Winchester easily, perhaps exceed it slightly, but not much. The case capacities are just about identical and the .358 has close to an 'improved' case design. Due to some of the actions used in the .358, ie: M99 Savage, the .358 is somewhat underloaded to it's real potential, and can be improved upon.

Velocties of 2,350fps with 250gr. are easily acomplished in a bolt .358 Win. gun with 22" to 23" bl. The same can be said for the 9x57 Mauser in a similar bolt gun, ie: 98 Mauser. A working pressure of 60,000PSI is feasable.
I would do that route, but probably improve the 9x57 case and use .358 Win. dies for neck all sizing and bullet seating. The Improved chamber can be cut with any Improved reamer for a standard bolt face, and a neck throater used for that part of the chamber, or a dedicated reamer can be purchased for $160.00(replacable pilots, or much less for a solid pilot reamer. I've had excellent service from Pacific Tool and Gauge - Dave Kiff.

Note the dies must be set so the 20 degree shoulder of the .358Win. die doesn't push the 9x57IMP 40 degree shoulder back - pretty easy stuff for anyone familiar with loading. It should never need any further sizing, than neck sizing.

Thus, the 9x57 IMP should be able to push the 250gr. at just over 2,400fps, possibly another 50fps to 2,450fps in 24" bl. It would shine with the various lighter TSX bullets and standards like 225gr. for about 2,550fps to 2,600fps, but that is a guess. It might do better yet. I was able to get 2,650fps with 180 Speer from a Model 94 Winchester with 20" barrel in the .356 Win. for a fast stepping Deer/black bear load. My preferred bullet for that round, which would easily be exceeded by the 9x57, is 2,150fps.

57mm brass is plentiful - 6mm Rem, 7x57, 8x57 - easy to buy new brass in bulk, cheaply. Much easier than 62mm brass and no more difficult than '06 brass.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (27/04/10 01:13 AM)

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GK
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Reged: 29/10/09
Posts: 161
Loc: Adelaide
Re: Modern 9x57mm? [Re: DarylS]
      #159573 - 27/04/10 01:39 PM

OK, this is starting to get messy.

I'm disappointed that the 9x57 isn't better than the .358 win. Not sure I want to stuff around improving it, but it may grow on me.

For my needs .358Win power is sufficient, but I dont want to put a short case in a long action.
One thing I want to avoid at all costs is stuffing up the feeding realiability of a 98 Mauser.

I may end up considering the 9.3x62 option. What actual modifications must be made to the action?
If I get lucky and find a small ring M98 mauser (erfurt etc.), can the 9.3x62 be used in that?

George

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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Modern 9x57mm? [Re: GK]
      #159577 - 27/04/10 03:10 PM

A 9.3x62 will feed without need for modification from just about any .30-06 chambered rifle. Just re-barrel and fire away.

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GK
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Reged: 29/10/09
Posts: 161
Loc: Adelaide
Re: Modern 9x57mm? [Re: tophet1]
      #159584 - 27/04/10 04:37 PM

Quote:

A 9.3x62 will feed without need for modification from just about any .30-06 chambered rifle. Just re-barrel and fire away.



How about one that was originally chambered for 8x57 (but is now a .257Roberts)?

Is the operating pressure of a 9.3x62 higher than 8x57?

George

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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
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Re: Modern 9x57mm? [Re: GK]
      #159585 - 27/04/10 04:46 PM

Google is your friend.

http://93x62mmmauser.blogspot.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9.3x62mm

To paraphrase, the 9.3x62 was designed to be chambered in military Mauser 98's for (cheap) use by German colonists in Africa.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Modern 9x57mm? [Re: tophet1]
      #159606 - 28/04/10 12:44 AM

The 9x57 will also feed perfectly in an '06 action, with about any bullet weight or length, afterall, the rails are meant for that case.

In the M98 action, both have similar operating pressures, however the 'improved' shape of the 9.3x62, more like an Ackley Imp case, will allow higher pressures due to reduced bolt thrust(reduced case body taper). This is all pretty much acedemic though.

As loaded around the world, the 9.3x62 is held pretty much to 1920 low pressures, whereas the 9x57 is lower yet.

Since the 98 will allow normal modern pressure, both can be increased in velocity, considerably.

The 9x57 will just about match .35 Whelen factory ballistics if loaded by someone who has a great deal of handloading experience and knows what they are up to.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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GK
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Reged: 29/10/09
Posts: 161
Loc: Adelaide
Re: Modern 9x57mm? [Re: DarylS]
      #160102 - 07/05/10 08:46 PM

After much consideration, I have decided that I'll give the 9.3x62mm a miss.

This is due to the fact that too many people consider the small ring M98 action a bit weak. Also when considering my ultimate aim of a light and handy carbine for 200m shots (on sambar), it does not make much sense.

Since I have a couple of .308's, I'm also discounting the 8x57mm as I'm after something that can use 250gr bullets.

Therefore the choice came down to the 9x57 and the 9.3x57. After looking at the range of bullets that are available and various ballistics info, I'm leaning towards the 9x57 with a .358 barrel.

I feel that with 20 inch barrel that I would be too slow (under 2000f/s) to use the 286gr 9.3 bullets which appears to be the most common. So looking at the lighter .366cal bullet weights, only the 236gr appears to be easily available.

The .358cal allows me to use bullet weights from as low as 180 to over 270gr. Also for the lighter bullets (<250gr bullets) the BC's of the .358cal will tend to be better compared to the .366cal bullets, which ultimately means a little flatter trajectory.

George

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