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577500WR
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Anchorage, AK
Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4"
      #159278 - 21/04/10 03:06 PM

I slugged my bore today as I was going to reload some shells using a projectile size that was 2/1000 or so bigger than I currently use. As I looked at it, I thought I should slug the bore as the one size bullet was what the seller told me he used without problems.

I found some round balls and used them to slug both barrels. They were the same dimensions but the bore size was a surprise as it was a little over .403" but less than .404". I was shocked to say the least. Now I have some .410", 400 grain slugs I am NOT going to reload.

Has anyone else slugged their barrels and found the same thing?

I consulted with AkMike and he confirmed my measurements. We talked about it and the merits of different diameter bullets. As our conversation was coming to a close, Mike tells me to hold on, gets up and leaves the room. He comes back with a book in his hand titled, "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges" by Fleming.

"British Sporting Rifle Cartridges" is a book with dimensions of many British rounds. He flips it open and in no time finds a table with 450/400 3.25" dimensions and they are segregated by rifle maker. We find the Daniel Fraser dimensions and look at the 450/400 3 1/2" NE. It lists bullet size as .408". We are not too sure about that. Then we see the listing above it and for BPE in the same size the bullet diameter is listed as .405".

Guess what? We are thinking that the barrels were bored for the BPE and were used on my gun which is the NE version and proofed as such. The date of manufacture is in that range of time when they were probably changing over from BPE to NE. Can anyone else tell me if they have found something like this in their turn of the century rifles?

Also, can anyone recommend a custom bullet maker to create a .405" or .406" bullet in 400 grains or someone who can swage down what I have now?

Cheers,

AKMatt

--------------------
Most folks nowadays think talking about guns is a perversity. I view the old guns as being a record of the industrial revolution transforming the ordinary into high art and functionality.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: 577500WR]
      #159279 - 21/04/10 03:21 PM


450/400's notorious for having the widest range of bore dimensions around so it doesn't surprise me.

I'd get some .408's swaged them down and then use them.


- Edit - my apologise, I had the above sentance the wrong way round.

Edited by 500Nitro (21/04/10 05:52 PM)

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: 500Nitro]
      #159280 - 21/04/10 03:51 PM

Both of the pipes measured out approx .4035 using the slack jaws of the mic because of the 7 lands and grooves. Isn't the idea of throwing a .408 down such pristene barrels asking for trouble?

I'm very much in favor of having a batch swaged down or casting some lead! Does Woodeigh make 'custom' sizes? Another option is Northfork.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: AkMike]
      #159281 - 21/04/10 04:04 PM


With the 7 lands, did you measure from corner of a land to corner of a land, as opposed to just a "slack jaw" ?

You can get an EXACT measurement corner to corner.

.4035 is the smallest diameter I have ever heard of,
it just seems strange.

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: 500Nitro]
      #159282 - 21/04/10 04:53 PM

No I did a 'slack jawed' measurement. Matt can do a corner to corner and post that. It's still going to be a very tight barrel!
Sending a .410 bullet down wind must have looked like a snake swallowing a whole duck.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: AkMike]
      #159283 - 21/04/10 05:35 PM

With groove measurement, whenever an odd size shows up which appears to be a long way out of spec, I reckon it's a good idea to start again, re-slug both bores, and re-measure.
You also need to be 100% certain that the slug is actually in full contact with the groove diameter, and that the micrometer measurement is taken accurately.

If they really do turn out to be .4035", personally I'd be getting a reducing die made for .408" bullets, to take them down around .404" to .405".

Firstly though, I'd want to be dead sure that the groove measurement is correct.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: 4seventy]
      #159284 - 21/04/10 05:51 PM


4seventy

Agreed - re slug it and if I may add, with a LEAD BULLET / PROJECTILE, instead of a round ball.

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: 500Nitro]
      #159290 - 22/04/10 12:43 AM

He used a .429 round ball so it has full contact and is a nice job. Both slugs measure the same using a micrometer, a digital caliper and a dial caliper. But we were using the slack jaw method.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27022
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: AkMike]
      #159296 - 22/04/10 02:20 AM

That sized round ball will give accurate measure as the resulting 'flats' will be plenty long enough - if the measurer is accurate.
Be careful you don't compress the corners of the groove impressions when measuring, as they can compress easily, giving a small measurement. Smaller is better than larger.

Mike - your post said the 'bore' was between .403" and .404" - I take that to mean the 'groove' diameter was between those two measurements.

Lee Precision will make you bullet reducing (sizing) dies for around $25.00 each. mperrial die wax or STOS does a good job for lubing bullets for reducing. I am currently sizing .375" down to .367" in one pass in a die I cobbled, with barely more pressure than FL sizing a large case. those two lubes work well, but some lubes aren't a high enough pressure lube and might stick a bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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577500WR
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Anchorage, AK
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: DarylS]
      #159305 - 22/04/10 03:21 AM

Corner to corner I get .4040".

For those of you who wonder if tha ball diameter was adequate for slugging, it was a 44 cal which I measured at approximately .440". That should be enough to make an accurate engraving.

I will give Lee a call and see what they have to say.

Cheers,

AKMatt

--------------------
Most folks nowadays think talking about guns is a perversity. I view the old guns as being a record of the industrial revolution transforming the ordinary into high art and functionality.

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DM
.300 member


Reged: 12/02/07
Posts: 107
Loc: mid west USA
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: 577500WR]
      #159745 - 30/04/10 11:03 AM

You "swage" a bullet up, and "draw" it down, and if it was me, i'd get the die and draw the bullets down myself. Over the years, i've drawn down a LOT of bullets, it's very easy to do...

DM

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27022
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Slugged Bore Daniel Fraser 450/450 3 1/4" [Re: DM]
      #159778 - 30/04/10 11:50 PM

Yes - draw dies are for reducing diameter - as-are sizing dies - same meaning.

Many swages are hammer type - drop in an undersized chunk of lead and hammer the begeebers out of it (or use a press) to swage it out to the size of the die.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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