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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 93mouse]
      #158341 - 06/04/10 06:20 PM

Carpe

OK, first things first.

I would take the scope off the rifle and shoot and get / find a load that regulates 100%. I would try to use a bullet weight around 286gns.

Only change ONE component at a time.

At some point, try a couple of other bullet weights (lower / higher) to see if you can get it to regulate with these. Whether you do this before or after the step in the next paragraph is up to you.

Once you have the gun regulated without the scope, put the scope on and try the exact same load.

More to come.



Edited by 500Nitro (06/04/10 06:20 PM)

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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158380 - 07/04/10 04:14 AM

500 Nitro:

There-in lies the very first problem with this rifle; The iron sights are very low on the rib and the stock is a bavarian style. For me to see the sights, I have to grind my cheek bone into the stock. Firing the rifle in this manner is extremely painful. That is why I had a scope mounted.

However, I can remove the scope and rings and try a couple of shots with the factory ammo. A good idea.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158384 - 07/04/10 05:17 AM


OK, good.

The whole reason for this is that it gives you a reference point to start with - hopefully knowing that the gun will regulate correctly.

Once you have this, you can deviate from this load but you
always have a point to return to.


Remember - when working up loads, only change ONE component at a time - ie powder weight, primer, bullet weight.

That way, if and when you get a change in the POI on the target, you will know exactly what the reason for the change is.

Hope that helps.

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404bearslayer
.300 member


Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158385 - 07/04/10 05:31 AM

Carpediem,

do in deed take 500Nitro's advice, and try foremost to shoot the rifle with factory ammo over iron sights at 50 meters to check how it does this way.

As to why l/r shoots better then r/l: This is probably not a regulation issue as such, but asymmetrical tension between the barrels that plays out more pronounced when shooting r/l.

As I own a double rifle that had been regulated for iron sights only, and has a scope on it as well, I might be able to give you some insights:

From my experience, an added scope has the tendency to make the barrels cross (moving the left barrel on top and right to the right barrel in my case). Your target looks like the left barrel is already halfways on its way to move over to the right.

Depending on weight and relative position of the scope along the axis of the gun, this is more or less pronounced. Moving the scope forward, to a point where the original balance of the gun is regained, did not eliminate crossing, but brought the shots much closer together which made the scope very usable up to 60 yards. Obviously a question of eye-relief of your scope. Could only do that with a new Swaro Z6 EE, as the eye relief is huge.

Well, I had tried many loads at many different speeds but could not solve the problem until I tried this: Left barrel solid, right barrel soft. Bingo! Perfect regulation for the scoped gun.

If nothing works to your satisfaction in changing loads and bullets to attain useful regulation with a scope, I would very much recommend that you install an AIMPOINT red-dot mini-scope. They weigh almost nothing and will not alter regulation and have a practically infinite eye-relief. This will sit high enough so that you are not bothered by your Bavarian stock design and be effectively as fast in getting on target as iron sights (just easier to use). I recommend 1X magnification with a 2 MOA red dot.

http://www.aimpoint.com/o.o.i.s?id=28&prev_id=28&product_id=113

Edited by 404bearslayer (07/04/10 06:22 AM)

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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #158417 - 07/04/10 03:10 PM

Hello Again:

404Bearslayer:

welcome to my little kettle of stinky fish.

Let's add some more fish heads to the mix.

500 Nitro and 404Bearslayer:

Went and yanked off the scope today and what to my surprise did I find; loose srews holding the rings to the bases, CRAP!

But that's not all; I take a look down the barrels to look at my sights, and, I cant see the rear sight because the bases are in the way. CRAP x 2!

Compound this by the fact that the Zeiss Conquest weighs a ton. Sooooooo, I broke down and today I finally ordered the Leupold scout scope. 2.5 power, long eye relief, light.

Now I need to find a new rear and front sight to replace the original sights so I can see over the bases. Any suggestions regarding new front and rear sight?

I had a moment of weakness this morning when I was perusing the Cabela's gun library and saw that very nice Sabatti 9.3 x 74 R DR, colour case hardening, engraving with game scenes. I thought I could sell the Antonio Zoli, buy the Sabatti and put a few bucks in my pocket. Then I picked up the Zoli and said to myself, I can't give up on this beauty.

So, stay tuned. The pot continues to boil, the smell gets stronger and I continue to stir.

Comments, questions and concerns always welcome

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158420 - 07/04/10 05:08 PM

Recknagel makes single dovtailed blades up to 16mm hight, take a ruler and lay it over the bases and see how high they need to be. You need a sight thats higher also offcourse. But if the base is already loose, take them off and try without them first.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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404bearslayer
.300 member


Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 450_366]
      #158447 - 07/04/10 11:34 PM

Would also recommend Recknagel, they have the biggest choice:

http://www.recknagel.de/en.html

Obviously, you have already ordered the Leupold, let me comment on the scope anyhow: 9 inch eye relief is a lot for a regular scope, however you will be surprised how fast you run out of eye relief on a double if you want to move the scope forward, due to its construction. The Aimpoint has unlimited eye relief, will also work at 3 feet distance if you look through the scope at an angle. As for 2.5x magnification: For precision shooting there is not much practical difference between 1x and 2.5x, however with 1x you have a major advantage: With 1x and a red-dot system, you can easily shoot with both eyes open - the outline of the scope blurs away and all you see is the red dot and your target, while you have full view of the surroundings. This way, you get on target extremely fast, especially when the target is moving. Since it is truly parallax-free at all distances, you will hit even with an incorrect mount. It's also surprisingly easy to shoot precisely at distance. Try it out some time when you run into it (at a gun show, for example), you might like it. First time I used it was truly a 'wow' moment.

Edited by 404bearslayer (08/04/10 12:01 AM)

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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #158469 - 08/04/10 05:27 AM

Well Gentlemen, you know what they say about hindsight; 50/50 and all that stuff.

In this picture of the dr you will see a set of bases that have been milled into the rib of the rifle.





I elected to go with a set of Dave Talley rings and bases with quick detachable rings. My gunsmith did a beautiful job of installing the bases. What Dave Talley neglected to tell me when I ordered the QD rings was the turning lever would hit the barrels and therefore would not function as designed. Therefore I ended up with a not so quick detachable scope mount.



My concern is, the bases have already been machined into the ribs. Can I have these bases removed and substituted with the Recknagel claw mount bases? The Dave Talley bases are held in with screws. I suppose they will have to be plugged and new holes drilled for the recknagel bases. And then there is the issue of the space that has been machined out of the rib to accomodate the Dave Talley base. I can't imagine the Recknagel base will be a perfect fit for the existing slot.

Also, you will notice the base behind the rear sight and the rear sight are the same height.





Comments, questions, concerns always welcome.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

P.S. I guess one should be careful as to how quickly one seizes the day, LOL.

Edited by carpediem4570 (08/04/10 06:26 AM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158470 - 08/04/10 05:31 AM

My initial though is to replace the levers with Hex Screws.

Yes, not totally QD but I would not go stuffing around any more with more machining, replacing metal etc etc.

I think you are over complicating the whole thing.


How important is it that you have QD bases ?


To be honest, I have never had to remove a scope and
revert to iron sights mainly because I use low powered scopes
and even at 15 yards where all I see is a furry mass charging at me, it was still good enough to get a shot off and stop them both.

Edited by 500Nitro (08/04/10 06:30 AM)

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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158473 - 08/04/10 06:27 AM

I looked at the mount and theres no way you can replace them with a claw mount.

Stay with the mount as sugested above and bring along a tool to dismount the scope if broken.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 450_366]
      #158475 - 08/04/10 06:49 AM

500 Nitro and 450 366:

You must have been typing while I was editing my last post. I added some pictures of the scope, rings and bases. Please go back up and have a look.

Luckily the rings came with a set of hex screws so I substituted the levers with the screws. An allen wrench was include with the rings and although not as qick as the claw mounts, with allen wrench in hand, I can have the scope off in about 20 seconds.

I am not really interested in removing the scope for shooting. At 50, my eyes aren't quite what they were at 40, therefore I need the scope for good site acquisition. Also, with the low iron sights, I can get a better sight picture with the scope. My intent is to leave the scope on, but if I can find a higher rear and front sight, I will put them on for back up.

Here in Northern Alberta the only dangerous game is bear, and we don't have many of them where we are. And most shots are at approximately 25-250 metres, unless you're like my wife who shoots her deer at 10 metres; I taught her how to hunt, LOL. So there is no close up dangerous game shots reguiring open sights.

As I said in another post, the rifle scope mount was set up for a intermediate eye relief scope with the rear of the bell being in line with the breach face.



The scope was very light but I did not like the scope because the cross hair was too fine. Consequently I have ordered the Leupold Scout scope to replace the very heavy Zeiss Conquest. I am hoping the change in weight will help my regulation situation. At 2.5 power, the scout scope should be perfect for my application.


Comments, questions, concerns always welcome.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158477 - 08/04/10 07:02 AM


Well any good gunsmith should be able to make a rear sight
and I would say you could buy both front and rear blanks and
have them modified to fit if you can't buy the exact fit.

Just remember you have to get the gun to shoot to the sights so make sure you work out what is what before you go buying them.

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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158478 - 08/04/10 07:09 AM

500 Nitro:

My gunsmith told me he will put on the proper rear and front sights. He said it shouldn't be a problem to find the right height for both.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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