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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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mauserand9mm
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Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 1040
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: bonanza]
      #159771 - 30/04/10 08:41 PM

I used 18gns of Trailboss which had some space left under the bullet. I figure these were subsonic (1000fps?).

I'm also going to try AR2207 since velocities are similar to AR2205 but you use a little bit more of it. I've also been told that 2207 lights up easier than 2205. My last 2205 load gave a slight hangfire and I've decided to steer clear of fillers (I'm using magnum primers too), so 2207 should help.

I've just bought a set of Warne QD mounts and have installed an old Tasco 4x32 scope that I had lying around - it should stand up to the reduced laod recoil okay. The Warne mounts are schmicko!

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mauserand9mm
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Reged: 03/09/09
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #160601 - 17/05/10 01:29 PM

Put the scope on and ramped up the loads to 20gn of Trailboss (405gn Westcastings, Win cases and CCI LR magnum primers) - for approx. 1000fps.

They shoot 1-2MOA at 50yards but open up to 4MOA at 100yards - still good for mucking around with. Half of the rounds that I fire you can hear that the projectiles are not fully stablised - I guess that would explain the worsening grouping as the range increases. All of the holes in the target look to be round though - I'll have to "guage" them with a projectile to see if in fact they are.

I'll be sticking with Trailboss from now on, before I do any damage with the other powders. AR2205 and AR2207 give slight hangfires. I also tried reduced loads with AR2206H and got rid of the hangfies but unburnt powder in the barrel and very sooty cases. AR2208 was worse - more unburnt powder and more soot on the cases, and also a complete ignition failure and another stuck projectile.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #170911 - 05/11/10 07:59 AM

Now I've bought some 500gn Westcastings and once again these are limited to 1700fps max.

I think this is going to be more easily achievable without going too light a load and having ignition problems. Anyone using AR2205 or AR2207 out there and have a load under this velocity?

I won't use a pistol powder and have already tried Trailboss - works fine for the 405gn (~1000fps) but doesn't stabilise the 500gn because I think they are going too slow (~900fps). Changing the load with Trailboss doesn't seem to have a large effect on the velocity.

[Mind you, even though half of 500gn / Trailboss loads went through the target sideways @ 100yds, they still "grouped" within 7MOA - close up pig hunting accuracy? Nah - I wouldn't try it]

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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #170923 - 05/11/10 11:49 AM

For a more powerful load, I'd just use a full case of something like H4895 - filled to the base of the bullet with only a few thou of compression. It should shoot accurately, too. This is more or less what I did with my .458 Alaskan with lead - shot MOA at 100 meters with 500gr. Lee gas checked bullets - straight WW alloy at 2,000fps.

I've shot TrailBoss with 500 and 525gr. cast bullets from my .45/60 Sharps. At 800 to 900fps vel. they print 1 1/2" at 100 meters from it's 18" twist. It's possible your 500gr. bullets have something wrong with them to cause keyholes. Are they undersize? That will cause problems. Cast bullets should be a minimum of .001" oversize to shoot well. Gun's vary somewhat in what they want for cast. The 500gr. + will actually stabilize from 14" of twist, right to 22" of twist at those low speeds - and on up to whatever speed you can get. Stabilization is NOT the problem.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #170971 - 05/11/10 09:57 AM

They are 0.459" - I made sure of that after I had dramas with the 405gn projectiles at 0.458". Only a small portion of the 0.458" hit the target at 100 yards and those that did were completely sideways - if fact you could hear that were unstable from the muzzle due to the weird noise they made. The 500gns sound normal so I thought they may be losing stability further down range due to the low initial velocity but I guess once they've been "spun-up" they shouldn't lose stability since the spin doesn't appreciably drop off as it travels down range.

There was no evidence of leading with the 500gn either but at 900fps I wouldn't have expected any.

I have to keep these below 1700fps as they don't have gas checks and use a dry coating of some sort. I have a Lyman reloading manual that identify the velocities I want using the IMR equivalents of AR2205 and AR2207 but am keen to get feedback from others that may have used the AR powders and in the CZ, but all comments/suggestions appreciated.



Interesting (frustrating?) playing around with lead. I recently discovered that my Traiboss loads and the 405gn projectiles are good at 20gns but accuracy dissappears with 21gns (keyhole, not all hitting the target etc) - no leading and no weird sounds either.

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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #171005 - 06/11/10 03:32 AM

At the 21gr. load, it sounds as if the pressure TBoss is generating, exceeds the strength of the bullet by too much and may be bending them before they are entirely inside the bore. You could try seating them out as far as possible, or merely trying a different, slower burning powder.(so the bullet is totally within the bore before the powder peaks pressure).

Although it developes low velocities, it is a common mistake to think TBoss is also a low pressure powder. The full case you are using is probably in the 30,000 to 35,000 psi range. In this case, it might be peaking too early.

Dropping to an H4895 load, what is it? AR2206H?, might give what you desire. Varget will also work, but I prefer H4895(made in Australia by ADI). I also loaded 45 to 50gr. in mine and got very good accuracy with 500gr. in my rifle - in the 1,500fps range- similar ot a .45 2 7/8" Sharps loaded with 120gr. of black powder & 500gr. bullet. Regular primers can be used, but with reduced rifle powders, I used WW, RP or CCI magnum primers. It didn't seem to matter which. With less than full capcity loads, I used KAPOK between the powder and bullet -(you can use a card wad under the bullet if no gas check, will about give gas check results). You can even use a gas check upside-down on a full case of powder if you want. The whole reason of the gas check is to seal and prevent gas cutting.

The KAPOK and card wad do that as well in less than full case loads. If using a filler - any filler, it should/must fill the empty space.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #171013 - 06/11/10 05:58 AM

While there may a little difference in results, using the recognised start load of 13gn Red Dot in cases larger than 30 cal is a good place to start. I cast for my 404 Jeffery and with a 400gn plain based boolit, used Red Dot for my subsonic load. This powder is not position sensative and starting at 13gn for 1096fps, I graduated to 14.5 for 1161fps. Have you been on the http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ forums. There is a wealth of knowledge there.

Von Gruff.



--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (06/11/10 06:10 AM)

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mauserand9mm
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Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 1040
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: VonGruff]
      #171083 - 07/11/10 08:39 PM

Yes, I've had a quick look around the castboolits site.

Well I tried loads with AR2205 (IMR4227 equivalent) and they went completely sideways but otherwise "grouped" within 4MOA at 50 yards.

I then tried AR2207 (IMR4198 equivalent) and these worked properly ie round holes in the target. They did about 2 1/2 MOA which is about as good as my Trailboss loads with the 405gn. I've not sure how fast they were going but they did give some boot (similar to a 308?). No leading at all and burnt very clean. (I use magnum primers but no filler and seat the projectiles well into the case ad use a light roll crimp.)

The load of AR2205 I was using was supposed to give around the same velocity as the AR2207 loads - obviously the pressure curves make a difference to the performance, assuming they are doing the same velocity.

Anyway more load fiddling to do and slower powders to try (to fill up some of that space in the case).

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: Tatume]
      #171104 - 08/11/10 03:17 AM

I've had good luck with trail boss and Cast Performance 480 grain wide flat nose.

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