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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: 450_366]
      #153397 - 12/02/10 05:13 AM

Quote:

Now i feel stupid, i only see an ordinary mauser.

Could someone please make some arrows on the pictures to point out the difference.


I would like to do, but dunno how!

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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dons
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Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 431
Loc: Essex
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: kuduae]
      #153415 - 12/02/10 08:38 AM

kuduae:
Thank you for your recommendation regarding reading material, but I have all of Speed's books. I'm aware of the #1125 adjacent to the mounting boss but unable to confirm the number on the rear of the magazine. There is no sign of the Mauser address and ring date on the receiver. Removed? Can read the serial #89057 on the left wall and receiver face. This number is also stamped on the bolt handle root, firing pin nut, and safety. Mismatched bolt assembly? I would expect to see #1125 in these locations. Can't see a # on the bolt release. Also as previously stated, the bottom metal is altered or mismatched. I will concede that this action may have started life as a transitional, but not much of it remains. Maybe I'm too much of a purist. BTW, if you care to scan the Mauser photo archive, you may find my Mauser collection of interest.

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: dons]
      #153419 - 12/02/10 10:00 AM

Well Dons, as you have Jon Speed's first book,"Original Oberndorf...", go to page 146-147 "Marking for Export"for the position of the Mauser # only on the bottom of the receiver. Continue with page 150 "The Mauserless Mausers" for the lack of the company name. Then page 162: the Mauser banner was only stamped on actions since 1924, but we are around 1900.
On this action, we have two sets of serial numbers: The Mauser # 1125 points to the action date 1899, see page 433. Then we have a Sauer & Sohn serial number 89057. According to Jim Cate's book "J.P.Sauer&Sohn" this S&S # points to 1903-4. Okay, in the photos the Mauser serial # on the rear magazine wall is illegible, but there is a "Blur" visible in the correct position, right under the receiver.Smaller trigger parts still show the end #25. The Suhl people apparently tore the actions they had to "buy in" from Mauser (no other action maker, as patents were still valid)down to parts, modified them and assembled them into their own, distinctively shaped rifles with little regard to the Mauser serial numbers. On the "W.Foerster" rifle mentioned above, top and bottom metal have different Mauser serial numbers, but as they are engraved by the same hand they were probably assembled this way before 1912.
For the shape of the triggerguard and early double set triggers, go to page 427 and look at photos #969 and 970. IMHO this action is the complete commercial Mauser transition action #1125, made some years later by Sauer&Sohn,Suhl into a sporting rifle and in parts renumbered by S&S in visible places into their own range, #89057.

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by kuduae (12/02/10 10:35 AM)

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: kuduae]
      #153420 - 12/02/10 10:24 AM

Sauercollector, from your photos I don't quite believe a rebarrel job. Can you please post a photo of the proofmarks under the barrel?

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Sauercollector
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Reged: 03/02/10
Posts: 21
Loc: PacNW
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: kuduae]
      #153459 - 12/02/10 07:58 PM

The following is a bit of information for those that do not know about Sauer manufacturing process in regards to their Mauser 98 rifles. Sauer & Sohn purchased serial numbered actions and/or barreled actions from Mauser, complete with Mauser serial number stamped therein. During Sauer's finishing process or whenever the action had been received from Mauser, Sauers sequential serial number would be stamped on the receiver ring. Bolt root would always receive the last four digits of Sauer s/n stamped there, in this case "9057". Small parts would generally be stamped with last three digits of the Sauer s/n---as space allowed. Last two digits of the Mauser s/n was generally left on the smaller parts as can be seen in accompaning photos, "25" in this case.

In most but not all cases the Mauser s/n and date on the receiver ring was filed off during Sauers finishing process. The above is true for many dozens of Sauer Mausers that I have examined except for a few where the Mauser s/n and the Sauer s/n co-exist on the receiver ring.

The pictured action in this thread is not cobbled together from various bolt guns but is a barreled action that was finished by Sauer & Sohn. Many folks think that becuase the number on the bolt handle does not match the Mauser s/n that the bolt has been replaced. In regards to Sauer finished 98 rifles this is not the case. The key here is that the Sauer s/n and the bolt s/n need to match. As an aside and to address a portion of an earlier reply, the box and trigger guard are intergral and machined from a single piece of steel. Anyway a few more photos with advance apologies for their quality. Jeff





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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: Sauercollector]
      #153476 - 13/02/10 12:33 AM

Yes, your rifle has been rebarreled, it was proofed by the Suhl proofhouse in May 1932, 5.32.
In the pre-WW1 days S&S did not need to file off Mauser markings in every case,as Mauser delivered actions to the guntrade unmarked except for the serial number if asked, see Jon Speed p.150. Mauser was the only factory that could sell M98 actions to the trade then, DWM and the state arsenals catering only to military demands, so there was no need to display their name. Any commercial M98 action was of course made by them. Only after WW1, 1924, with the maket flooded with ex-military actions, they applied a small Mauser banner to the underside.

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Sauercollector
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Posts: 21
Loc: PacNW
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: 450_366]
      #153496 - 13/02/10 04:57 AM

Kuduae...any chance that you know where I might find a set of single foot claw rings in Deutchland? Please send me a PM if you do! Also looking for a complete and original Lyman 48 sight (Please PM me if anyone has one for sale or knows where I can find one)

I want to thank everyone for contributing to this thread (thus far) I for one have learned a few things about pressures, case design and Mausers in general. Guten Tag und danke Sehr! Jeff

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: Sauercollector]
      #153508 - 13/02/10 08:29 AM

Dons, if you criticise Sauer&Sohn for altering an original Mauser bottom metal to their tastes in making their own rifles, I will call a .303 Fraser rifle on a short intermediate slant-box Mauser action a "heavily butchered Mauser action, bolt handle altered to a funny configuration, bottom metal filed away to a shape similar to a shotgun, original markings removed, scratched with useless engraving, inscribed with a silly note referring to an aftermarket trigger"

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dons
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Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 431
Loc: Essex
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: kuduae]
      #153537 - 13/02/10 01:22 PM

Axel: The only 303 Fraser I own is built on an 1893 Spanish military action.

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: dons]
      #153576 - 13/02/10 09:06 PM

A Fraser rifle fitting that description was described in DWJ 12/98 and is now offered by Waffen Beste in Germany.
http://www.waffen-beste.de/html/buchs__u__kombi_.html

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lancaster
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Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: kuduae]
      #153592 - 14/02/10 01:18 AM

have made a link to this rifle last year http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=124714&an=0&page=4#Post124714
think for the 8500 euro asking it will be there for a while

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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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dons
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Posts: 431
Loc: Essex
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: lancaster]
      #153629 - 14/02/10 07:33 AM

That particular Fraser is chambered for the 303 British round and built on a Mauser M98 short intermediate slant box action in 1901. My Fraser is chambered for the rare proprietary "Fraser 303 rimless" round and built on a Spanish Mauser 1893 military action with a straight box in 1893-94. The Fraser 303 rimless is dimensionally similar to the 303 British but without the flange.

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lancaster
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Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: dons]
      #153631 - 14/02/10 07:46 AM

was the fraser cartridge not one of this semi rimless rounds? you know, like a 32 acp rim.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Small Ring Conversion questions and Chamber Pressure [Re: lancaster]
      #153683 - 14/02/10 10:54 PM

The .303 Fraser "rimless" being a semi-rimmed cartridge makes sense: As Fraser intended it to be used in Mauser M93-95 actions, the rims had to fit the existing boltfaces for reliable extraction and ejection. As the .303 British has a smaller base diameter than the Mauser 7x57 or 7.65 x53, turning down the rim to fit the Mauser bolt face results in a semi-rimmed case.
Dons, I was not talking about your's or any other specific Fraser rifle. I just wanted to point to the fact that a Mauser action heavily modified by a "name" maker like Fraser is regarded as a work of art, while one modified by a no-name Suhl gunsmith, who may have made more rifles "for the trade" than Fraser and Griffin &Howe combined, is downgraded as being "scrubbed, butchered and modified with non-original features". After comparing a lot of pre-WW1 Suhl made repeaters, I tend to believe the stocks of most, regardless of names like Sauer&Sohn, Haenel or you name them, came from only one specialized shop! ! Another example: I have seen a Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig 7x64 rifle, long barrel, ¾ length foreend, Mauser commercial action with solid left wall, Brenneke's patented bolt detent, fully inscribed as an original Brenneke product. On close examination we found in several hidden places, fi under the magazine floorplate lever, a small stamp "ESHA". So this rifle was actually made for Brenneke by Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl. Or, have you ever noticed a British "Pople" double rifle or shotgun? Well, all the Holland & Holland second grade "Dominion" guns and rifles were bought in by them from another gunmaker, J.Pople & Sons, Price St., Birmingham!

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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Sauercollector
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Reged: 03/02/10
Posts: 21
Loc: PacNW
Re: Small Ring Conversion and Stock Pentagraph service? [Re: 450_366]
      #155351 - 03/03/10 06:58 AM

Hi Again...Can anyone give recomendations please on someone that can "turn" a stock blank to an English Style stock for my small ring conversion? I am looking to have the blank pentagraphed in the Westley Richards style. (Round Knob without grip cap) I have done a web search for this service but so far have not found any outfit/website that "jumps" out at me. Looking to have the blank turned/pentagraphed to end up semi-inleted so there is enough meat left for fitting the bbl'd action to the stock. Anyone have any personal experience with this sort of thing and what were they? Good? Bad? Any and all help appreciated and thanks in advance! jeff

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