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Story
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Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle
      #152083 - 28/01/10 01:45 PM

Posted over on Gunboards, the current owner was looking for any information on Grundig as well as source for a period-correct scope and mounts.

As noted by "Feuerwerker", it's a very nice Mauser 98 sporting rifle fom Carl Gründig, gunmaker to the King of Saxony who was in business in Dresden up until at least 1939.

Photos pending via CPTCURL.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Story]
      #152135 - 29/01/10 01:19 PM





























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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #152176 - 30/01/10 01:12 AM

Fancy!

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #152223 - 30/01/10 02:10 PM

Lovely rifle!

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The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

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ellenbr
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #152264 - 30/01/10 11:31 PM

Proofed in the final state and with the butterknife bolt handle, floorplate release, and a few other items, I'd say the example was made in Suhl possibly by Sauer and if not Sauer then E. Schmidt & Habermann. Pics of the marks on the underside of the tube just might reveal the answer to the puzzle. But Carl Gründig(Gruendig) Königlich Sächsischer Hofbüchsenmacher of Dresden obtained the rank of master in 1868 and typically the earliest age of master would be 23 or 24 years,then he was born circa 1844. In 1876 he hung out his own shingle at Schloss Strasse 10 Dresden. Just prior to WWI his sons Hugo and Max had taken the reins of the company while it was at Schloss Strasse 23 and there was some pairing of Teschner-Collath with Gründig in 1915 or 1916 making Gründig their Saxon retailer. Being a Royal Saxonian Court gun supplier is just that. He could have been supplying arms to the grounds keeper for that matter and had to pay a yearly fee for the title after it was awarded/bestowed. With the best craftsmen in the world in Suhl, why would Gründig make an example totally in Dresden when he could either source the components from Suhl or purchase an example from Suhl with his name and title roll stamped or engraved on it. I will say there are a few exceptions to the rule of Suhl sourcing which I thought not to exist. But Max G. Fischer of Berlin is one such example and it appears that he did make many of his offerings. But with Carl Gründig being born in the 1840s, he more than likely retired in the early 1900s and his heir and assigns continued to use his name and title. Early on I'm sure he made his examples but like most of the master gunsmiths, later in life he made the transition to firearms merchant possibly with a small repair shop. Every firearms merchant had to have a master gunsmith on staff and there must have been a law/rule where the widow of a master gunsmith could continue the business for some statute amount of time. Gründig also was an inventor as per his filed petty patents(D.R.G.M.s). One of his neat examples was a hammer Vierling, actually a Schienen-Vierling, with rotating hammer heads. He new quality.

I wonder how the mounting of the front claw mount sat with the engraver?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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rigbymauser
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: ellenbr]
      #152266 - 30/01/10 11:42 PM

Candy

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xausa
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: ellenbr]
      #152268 - 31/01/10 12:16 AM

It seems as though the custom gun makers could never get the bolt handle treatment right. Compared to the elegantly formed Oberndorf commercial Mauser bolt handles, one like this looks like a lifeless afterthought, lacking the elegance and grace of the factory version. It looks as though the original knob was simply heated up and hammered flat, then perfunctorily checkered. Even the post war Mausers produced by BRNO have flat bolt handles with much the same flair as their original Oberndorf prototypes.

The same thought as expressed by ellenbr struck me about the ravaging of the engraved receiver ring for the purpose of dovetailing in the front base for the claw mount. There was a perfectly acceptable alternative to this, in the form of an adapter with a built in dovetail for the front scope mount base, which could be installed over the barrel at the chamber. Use of it would also have avoided weakening the action by the gigantic dovetail cut above the locking lug recess. As pointed out in an earlier thread, such a rifle would never pass proof today.


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ellenbr
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: xausa]
      #152270 - 31/01/10 12:28 AM

xausa:

Very good point about the dovetail and all German examples(bolts, doubles, triples) that are pre-1900 with claw mounts were added later. I think this to have been one of the tasks of the firearms merchant to install and mount scopes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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kuduae
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: ellenbr]
      #152281 - 31/01/10 03:45 AM

The rifle is of typical pre-WW1 Suhl design. These rifles were made by the guntrade there for all the "name" and "country" gunmakers. A look at the proofmarks under the barrel will allow closer dating: If the bore diameter is given as a gauge number like 108,49 or 118,35 it is pre-1912, if given in mm like 8,9 it is post, then there is also the possibility you find a proof date like 7.13 for July 1913. Most of these sporters are made on commercial Mauser actions. Before WW1 the Mauser patents were still valid and there were no military surplus M98 actions, so everyone wanting to offer a M98-actioned rifle had to buy in the action from Mauser, Oberndorf first. Mauser supplied their actions to the worldwide guntrade then, not only German ones like Sauer&Sohn or Haenel, but also to Rigby, Holland&Holland and you name them. Mauser did not mark these actions on the outside, but all got the Mauser commercial serial number on the underside of the receiver behind the recoil lug and on the rear wall of the magazine. If you find a number up to about 82000 in these places, you have a original commercial Mauser part. Pre-WW1 Mauser sold about 70% of their commercial production this way as actions only before 1914. As these actions were bought in in batches and the Suhl makers disassembled them first, you often find mixed Mauser numbers on receivers and magazines.
IMHO the bolt, at least it's sleeve was replaced at a later date, perhaps on scope mounting, as they are not engraved the same as the other parts. I know another such rifle in 9.3x62 signed by Otto Bock, inventor of the cartridge, with mixed Mauser numbers and a earlier transitional bolt, but also with a later bolt sleeve.
I would not bother about the slotted receiver ring with a moderate pressure cartridge like the 9.3x62. At least, Mauser themselves used it on their scope mounts. It only was frowned upon long after WW2 with the common use of "magnum" loads and individual gunsmithes cutting the notch too deep, sometimes into the barrel threading.
The old claw mount were individually made and fitted, nothing being standardized. Fitting new rings to existing claw mount bases is often impossible, at least very expensive handwork, requiring a craftsman knowing about the job. I would suggest: Replace the old bases with EAW or Recknagel pivot mount bases, then you may mount any modern scope without worrying about eye relief and length of scope.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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lancaster
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: kuduae]
      #154245 - 20/02/10 03:30 AM

here is a Gründig paper from 1926

http://www.jagdwaffensammler.de/index.php?id=12

clearly to see in the head they sold Sauer&Sohn rifle's

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (20/02/10 03:35 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #154251 - 20/02/10 04:41 AM

According to a Mauser, Oberndorf ca.1900 commercial distributor list, published by Jon Speed:"Mauser Archive", page 34, Karl Gründig, Gewandhausstr.7, Dresden, was one of the main Mauser distributors too!

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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lancaster
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: kuduae]
      #154254 - 20/02/10 05:14 AM

you see this on the document here on the left side to

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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ellenbr
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #154275 - 20/02/10 12:57 PM

Very nice find of an insightful document. Sauer was fully mechanized and could turn out production examples at a lower cost. But if a special order was received, they too would outsource.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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kuduae
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: ellenbr]
      #154317 - 21/02/10 07:10 AM

Xausa , on bolt handle shape: As the Romans said "de gustibus non est disputandum!" = you cannot discuss tastes!In the early 1900s the Mauser repeating rifles were not regarded as "classics", but as ugly, new -fangled, military-looking shooting machines that no respectable hunter would use, just like semi-auto AR15 or Kalashnikow clones are regarded today. The Austrian emperor Franz-Josef would not allow anyone using a bolt-action on his hunts! Especially tangent rear sights, round barrels and bolt-knobs were frowned upon as "musket-like". Hence the Suhl gunsmithes developed their own distictive style before WW1, with half- or full octagonal ribbed barrels, cross wedges through the foreend, schnabel tips and flattened bolt handles. Only after 1910 Mauser took to some of the Suhl features on their commercial rifles, like Schnabel foreends, ribbed oct.barrels and lever-release floorplates! Before WW1, Suhl style Mauser rifles were usually more expensive than the Mauser originals, as the actions had to be bought in from Mauser. Only after WW1 with the wide availability of ex-military actions and hard economic times the Suhl/Zella-Mehlis made products became much cheaper than the new-made commercial Mauser rifles. As most German men had served through WW1, German hunters now were accustomed to the "military-looking" Mauser design.
Remember, only after serving in the great war, Americans accepted bolt-actions as "hunting rifles", only slowly abandoning their beloved lever-actions.

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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John303
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: kuduae]
      #164995 - 26/07/10 10:33 AM

Just looking around on the computer for some info. on an un-named rifle I just acquired. My main ? is what is that style of engraving called? I would say that the engraving on my rifle could have been done by the same engraver the style is certainly the same. Just a brief discription - small ring action, likely a 98a - double set triggers - round barrel with a full lenght 2 step rib - cal. 8x57 - the stock has no side panels, the checkering, on the pistol grip only, is quite fine probably 22 lpi - serial # 645x - bolt flattened and checkered on the under side - the action & bolt still retain some case colour - no mounting holes in the action which is a + at least for me. Thank you for any comments / questions. --- John303.

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ellenbr
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: John303]
      #165020 - 27/07/10 01:31 AM

John303:
From what little I know about engraving it might be what is termed Wetzlaub or stylized vines/leaves which has somewhat of a Renaissance flare to it. Richard Keller's work was along those lines. Mr. Frühauf an engraver in Suhl might provide some direction.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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kuduae
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: ellenbr]
      #165032 - 27/07/10 04:02 AM

John 303: Can you post photos of your rifle's action area and of any proofmarks, letters and numbers under the barrel? Yes, you have to disassemble the gun to see the markings. Knowing these would perhaps enable us to tell you more about your rifle's make and date.
Axel

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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John303
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: kuduae]
      #165034 - 27/07/10 05:08 AM

Thanks for input and sorry no pics. The gun is apart for a good cleaning so no problem there. The marks are rather hazy / its my old eyes, but here goes - an eagle with up-right wings & a crown "buried" in the engraving on the front ring - on the under side the # 32 on the ring & barrel in several places - very faint127 on the barrel - letters on the action P,C,G,S all separate from one another and in different places - the #s 8,3,1 again separate. No cartridge / cal. mark, may need to do a cast to be sure. --- John303.

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Mark_Dube
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: John303]
      #165152 - 29/07/10 10:26 AM

Hello all,

Here are photos of John's rifle:



















--------------------
Mark

Edited by CptCurl (31/07/10 12:08 AM)


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John303
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Mark_Dube]
      #165156 - 29/07/10 11:49 AM

Thanks Mark, I hoped you kept them, but as you all can see no bottom of action pics, but note the eagle on the front ring. --- John303.

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ellenbr
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Mark_Dube]
      #165225 - 30/07/10 10:28 AM

Quote:







The Eagle holding a different item in each claw is seen on many, if not all, of pre-1893 Sauer examples. I think it to be a Sauer mark but it might be an arsenal mark for Sauer only.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (31/07/10 12:09 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: ellenbr]
      #165254 - 31/07/10 12:47 AM

This eagle resembles the German Imperial eagle in use from 1871 to 1918. The imperial eagle was used, as part of their private proof, pre-1893, but also by the German state arsenals on military 98s as an acceptance stamp. But this eagle is slightly different: It lacks the imperial crown over it's head! Here is the same eagle, also on a small-ring Kar98a action:

Apparently this crownless eagle was used immediately post-WW1 by the former Government arsenals Erfurt and Danzig. After November 1918 there was no Kaiser or king anymore, so no crown over the eagle. Both arsenals tried to convert to civilian gunmaking, using Kar98a actions. The Danzig factory was renamed "Gewehrfabrik Danzig", while the Erfurt one was called "Reichswerke Erfurt" =RwE. After the Versailles so-called "Peace Treaty" 1920, both factories were dismantled by the allied disarmament comissions.
IMHO this is one of these ca 1919 rifles, but somewhat upgraded by engraving and a soldered-on rib, perhaps in-house in Erfurt or by some of the many unemployed Suhl/Zella-Mehlis craftsmen.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (31/07/10 01:32 AM)


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ellenbr
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Re: Carl Grundig of Dresden 9.3 X 62 Bolt Action Rifle [Re: kuduae]
      #165280 - 31/07/10 04:18 AM


Typically the Eagle with something in both talons is seen in conjunction with the wreath crowned "S&S" and the lowercase script "g".


Then it is seen near the "Caveman" with a "Staff" and just might be a process mark.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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