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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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FATBOY404
.400 member


Reged: 14/11/09
Posts: 1730
Loc: QLD
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: DarylS]
      #151850 - 26/01/10 07:29 AM

It is just a 338-06. I use standard RCBS dies.
Its on a Rem 700 action that has a long mag box and even though I didn't ask for it , it has a very long throat, but it doesn't hurt the way it shoots.
Mine is 3 years old, fired about 7-800 rounds and I still havn't full length resized yet. I'm still using the same 100 Norma cases, but everyone seems to think these are warm loads.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: FATBOY404]
      #151858 - 26/01/10 08:41 AM

G'Day Fella's,

I also have a .338-06 (std), whilst I can't remember the specific loads off hand (the load data is out in the Funshop). What I do remember is, when I was doing my research into powder, loads etc, IMR 4320 was deemed to be "The Powder", for this cartridge!

Now I think ADI equivalent of IMR 4320, is AR 2208?
Let me know if you want the details of these loads?

My rifle is based on a BRNO ZKK-600 rifle (it was originally a 7x57).
I had the BRNO barrel re-bored by Sprinter, to .338 and had Bill Hamberley-Clark Jnr chamber and rust blue the barreled action.
I have the factory open sights set for the 200grain Hornady Spire Point and the Pop-Up Peep is used for the 250grain Hornady RN. My loads for this rifle, are only moderate as I also have a .338 Win Mag, which I run, Maximum Safe Working Load (MSWL) through.

Happy Australia Day!
Hommer.

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: Homer]
      #151961 - 27/01/10 02:45 AM

TKS Fatboy - I've and thousands and thousands of rounds. I do partical full length size some calibres though, only sizing enough of the neck to hold the bullet.

My .375/06IMP runs 2,470fps with 300's and 2,675fps with 270's, H4895 and BLC2 being the powders of choice. Both of these bullet weights exceeds 1912 .375H&H bllistics and the 270gr. load duplicates actual modern factory 270gr. for the H&H.

My 9.3x62 also duplicates these ballistics as it has identical case capacity to my .375/06IMP case.

Neither have ever been more than neck sized, same as everything else I've ever shot.

Full length sizing is a recipe for head separations in most calibres by people who do not totally understand what they are actually doing.

Belted cases are the worse for short case life due to lousy headspace tolerances in both brass and chambers.

Head separations only happen in modern cases due to excessive headspace - the rifle's chamber, or caused by the loader shoving the shoulder back.

I have never had cases get tight in the chamber and need to be bumped or FL sized. It has never happened to me. Some rifles I have and have had, had over 6,500 rounds through them, only ever neck sized.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (27/01/10 02:50 AM)


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #151964 - 27/01/10 03:14 AM

I like it. Looks very rugged and will take any game. Good Alaska firearm.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: bonanza]
      #152024 - 27/01/10 02:54 PM

Yeah - that is a nice rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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450_Ackley
.375 member


Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: DarylS]
      #152670 - 03/02/10 07:41 AM

A bit more to add to the story.
My gunsmith headspaced it quite tightly, to try and take away some of the usual dimensional variances of the belts on belted magnums, which will most likely be a benefit to accuracy, although I'll make it headspace on the shoulder.
In doing so, an interesting point is noted.
Originally I necked down 100 Hornady 458 cases to 416, after loading it is very plain to see that the dimensions of the belts vary greatly with Hornady brass. I only necked the 458 cases down far enough to get the bolt to close with a little bit of resistance. Some of the cases, about 50% are really tight to chamber, I ran a black felt pen around the belt area and the shoulder area, chambered a few of the tight cases and lo and behold, the front edge of the belt had the pen removed. Winchester brass is a lot better than the Hornady in this respect, although there were still a few tight ones.
Goes to show that paying a lot for better cases is not necessarily a good option.
Also goes to show just how sloppy factory chambers and therefore headspace can be.
Our solution will begrudgingly be to take the chamber in about half to one thou to get the tighter cases to chamber.

Anyone else had similar problems, not necessarily with Hornady brass, but any brand of brass?

David.


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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #152678 - 03/02/10 08:50 AM

David,
Sounds like headspace has been set up too tight for sure.
If you are going to headspace on the shoulder anyway, it is a mistake to make the chamber tight at the belt for the same reason that you have found.
Might not be so bad a thing on a rifle to be used in comps, but super tight headspace and the corresponding sometimes tight cartridge chambering dramas, are a real pain in a hunting boltgun.


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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: 4seventy]
      #152730 - 03/02/10 07:34 PM

G'Day Fella's,

David I would almost bet that your Hornady brass is from Two Different batches or case forming machines/dies. All the cases were then put together, polished, boxed up and sold.
This is standard form, for most Cases and Bullets, that are made by Big Manufactures.

What I would do is, get a Wilson Trimmer Case Holder (The Best Case Trimmer Available!!!) to suit a .458 Win Mag, then hold the cases in the case holder and machine the all the Case Belts, to the same length, front to back!
I thought www.sinclairintl.com may have had them but they don't, you may need to get Case Holder for a .338 Win Mag and use it?
You will need a Lathe to do this and a fair bit of time but I believe in modifying the source of the problem, to suit the Firearm and not the other way around!!!

What ever you do, Don't check the Ogive Length (OL) of a batch bullets from a Big commercial bullet maker, as you might loose sleep over it?
There can be bullets with different "OL", (from 2 or 3 batches/dies), in One Box!

Hope some of the above has been of help!

HooRoo
From
Hammer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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450_Ackley
.375 member


Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: Homer]
      #152733 - 03/02/10 08:54 PM

Hommer,
Been there, done that with the projectiles, I don't do it anymore, lifes too short!
Did the same thing measuring loaded round runout with a shit hot 222 I've got, trying to look for that last squeeze of accuracy out of it. Got into sorting into 1 thou runout increments and batching them to accuracy test.
Don't do that anymore either, doesn't matter a crap.
Although I should explain that... the difference that 1-2 thou runout makes is nothing, the difference that 5-10 thou does.

BTW, have you changed your signature now to "Hammer"??

David.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #152784 - 04/02/10 04:32 AM

Normal SAAMI headspace on a rimmless ctg. is .006 -.007" US and Euro, but normal belted cases do not follow that criteria, it's common for a custom 'tighter' chamber to fail to chamber some belted ctgs. This is the main reason, I distain belted magnum brass.

You'll find measurements on belted brass running base to top of the belt from about .210" to .224"(at the most) in some brass, ie: .014", over double what it should be. (except for .450 Marlin alone, which are longer yet from the base to top of the belt)

When I chamber a 'rimmed' or 'rimless' ctg. in a barrel for myself, I ream it at '0' headspace. You cannot do that with belted cases as only a few from a box or 20 would fit. The only recourse, and a good one if this is important to you, is to measure all in a box and segregate them. Chamber the gun for 0 to +.001"(the shortest to .001" longer), ie: .210 to .211", then turn the belts of all the rest to that length - a simple task with a small lathe. Then, and only then, will headspace be perfect on a belted chamber.

Lets say a factory chamber allowed any belted case to chamber, as most do. That means it has at least up to .014" headspace on some brass. Everything shorter than that, then has up to .014" excess headspace. Upon firing, the case stretches at the web, which is the start of separation and the case will continue to stretch there, every shot. The only exception to this is a friend's factory Styre Mann., in .300 WTBY. It would chamber only 1/2 of a brand new box of factroy ammo, due to the belts in them being too high.

Using my example of fitting the brass to the chamber, and fitting as per necking to a crush fit before fireforming, the brass will not stretch at the web when firing. The brass of that .416 Taylor will then have the potential to never stretch and last, virtually the life of the barrel. This is provided that the reloader never pushes the shoulder back and never exceeds normal maximum loads for that ctg., which run about 63,500PSI. When firing, if the brass elasticity is never exceeded, the case will shrink .001" everywhere, as it should. If the cases have to be 'bumped' at the shoulder at any time, your load is too actually too hot and should be reduced. I've brass that has been fired with what many people consider too-hot loads, yet I've shot them over 40 times each with those same loads, and only every neck sized, never touching the shoulder.

If this is 'old hat' for you, I apologise.

Perhaps the best chambering tool for making a .416 Taylor, would be to use a .300Win. mag. or .375 WTBT Mag. reamer body, with a bore sized pilot, then a neck/throat reamer to finish the job. That chamber would have no belt and would actually be a semi-rimmed case(.532" rim), headspacing on the shoulder, smae basic case shape as a .220 Swift or .356 Win.). Turning the rims to .500" would still work in a magnum bolted Mauser action perfectly, and you'd have a rimless .416 Taylor - wonderful round that would be.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: DarylS]
      #152834 - 04/02/10 04:14 PM

Daryl,
That's interesting that you have brass with oversize belt thickness. I measured a dozen or so belted cases from various cartridges I have here and none were oversize.
Like you say there is a far amount of variation in belt thickness, but all mine ran from approx .006" to .011" undersize.
Are the oversize belts common to a particular brand?


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: 4seventy]
      #152865 - 05/02/10 01:58 AM

4Seventy - measure from the base to the top of the belt - that is the headspace measurement. I have found some to be within .210" to .216", which could be considered normal for SAAMI specs on rimmless brass (.006"), but - those that over that, will still chamber in the rifles, showing the chambers themselves have to much slop in the chamber, which means brass stretched at the web on the first shot. After that, if the shoulder is not touched when sizing, the stretching every shot is limited, but not eliminated and if one does as much shooting as he/she should, means frequent case length triming, until the brass finally goes bright ring and is tossed.

Another good idea for a .416 would be the 8x68S case. We've taken it up to .375 (9.5mm) and received wonderful velocities. It would be closer to a .416Rem. than the .416 Taylor due to having identical case capacity as the Rem. case + about 2 gr., depending on the make of brass. RWS brass is super brass, much stronger than normal belted magnum brass.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: DarylS]
      #152894 - 05/02/10 08:34 AM

Quote:

4Seventy - measure from the base to the top of the belt - that is the headspace measurement.




That's exactly what I did and they measured from .004" to .011" undersize, which gives .209" to .216" total belt thickness.

If I get time I'll try and find some more belted cases and check them, and might also measure my .458 for headspace just out of interest.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: 4seventy]
      #152952 - 06/02/10 04:15 AM

I've measured WTBY, RP, WW, Fed and Norma - all have showed over the standard .007" headspace measurements. As far as I'm concerned, even .005" or .006" is excessive, when it's a simple matter to do it all right in the first place.

I haven't measured any recently as I no longer shoot any belted magnums, my last .458 and ..375 being sold. In the .458 2" stuff, I used several makes of .338 brass, RP.350 Rem Mag brass as well as WW .458 brass. All brands had cases over .217". A few cases even went to .224", yet all chambered, but those 'extra' long ones shouldn't have.

Perhaps newer brass is being held to tighter specs. Perhaps there was a clamp-down by SAAMI 'whoever' they are.

I still look for reasons to not use or circumvent using belted brass as the belts are only needed on straight cases. They also add no useable strength to the case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Reggie
.224 member


Reged: 02/03/10
Posts: 36
Loc: Southeastern Louisiana, USA
Re: 416 Taylor project done! [Re: FATBOY404]
      #155433 - 04/03/10 05:15 AM

Built a .338-06 on a near perfect 98-Mauser. Used a Federal barrel (sadly, these people don't exist anymore) and spent a LOT of time in load development.

With the Sierra 250's and Hodgdon 414 powder, I get one-hole groups that are difficult to measure. This load also performs in the field - everything shot with it has just crumpled to the ground.


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