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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Forum Photos & Archive
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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: AspenHill]
      #155835 - 09/03/10 08:59 AM

Have you take the action out of the stock to see if it says anything on the underside of the barrel?

Nice rifle.

--------------------
~

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: Grenadier]
      #155839 - 09/03/10 10:35 AM

The rifle recently went out to Lon Paul, who verified that it suffered from insufficient headspace: the bolt would not close on a SAAMI Go gauge, nor on recently manufactured ammunition. However, he determined that it would chamber a round of Kynoch .404, which indicates to him and me that the rifle was chambered by someone who used a cartridge as a headspace gauge, or perhaps chambered the barrel before SAAMI standards were adopted.

Not only has the rifle been out of the stock (no markings anywhere on the barrel or stock), but the grip cap has been removed and examined, all without results. The bolt will now close on a SAAMI headspace gauge and on a fresh round of ammunition. This trip to the west coast and corrective gunsmithing was financed, incidentally, by Cabela's.

The list of stock makers and gunsmiths who have been eliminated as possibly responsible continues to grow. Among those eliminated are Gary Goudy, Jerry Fisher, Winston Elrod, Dennis Erhardt, Sterling Davenport and Griffin & Howe. I have attempted to contact Champlin about Maurice Ottmar, since he once worked for them, but so far no response. A friend who has had dealings with Tom Burgess and owns several rifles built by him agrees that the metal work is almost certainly his.

I continue to hope for a breakthrough, but even if none occurs, everyone seems to agree that I have a fine rifle.

This has been an interesting exercise, and I have been privileged to talk to a whole list of prominent stock makers. I found them without exception to be real gentlemen and very cooperative in dealing with a total stranger, who is not even a prospective customer.

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5061
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: xausa]
      #161565 - 06/06/10 10:01 AM

xausa that is a good looking rifle. I too am not overly fond of the knots but as you said the grain flow through the wrist is spot on.

Happy hunting with it.

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Carpetsahib
.333 member


Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: xausa]
      #195354 - 30/11/11 12:26 PM

Xausa,
Have you learned the identity of the craftsman who is responsible for this piece?

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Sville
.400 member


Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #195361 - 30/11/11 05:39 PM

I have once been through looking for the history of a rifle. Itīs very interesting. You learn a lot along the road. And īto have some question marks do make things exciting....
I like that rifle. Everything looks well built. /Staffan

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #195392 - 01/12/11 01:45 AM

Quote:

Have you learned the identity of the craftsman who is responsible for this piece?



I have not, and I am more and more convinced that what I have is a rifle which was originally a work of art, but one which was botched by a ham handed conversion to .404. Full length resized Hornady brass is difficult to close the bolt on even after several firings, and rounds tend to jump out of the right side of the magazine when cycling the bolt. The barrel bears only the cryptic marking ".404", with no indication of the maker's name.

As related above, the story I got was that the rifle was originally a .375 H&H and that it had been converted to .404 Jeffery at some time in its history. I suspect the original maker's name was on the .375 barrel and that the person who installed the .404 barrel had only Kynoch ammunition to check headspace with, since it evidently chambers original Kynoch ammunition with no problem. Eventually I intend to get it sorted out, perhaps to the estent of having a new barrel installed, but at the present I have other irons in the fire.

I try to fathom the mentality of someone who would commit such a desecration on a beautifully designed and executed rifle, but I have been unable to come up with anything. The only far fetched explanation I can imagine is that someone got the rifle for a song (estate sale/stolen property?) and decided that it was not powerful enough for a planned African trip. Following someone's advice, he turned the rifle over to a local gun mechanic, who did not even relieve the barrel channel correctly after installing the new barrel, and did nothing to correct the feed. The owner then possibly fired it a few times, decided that the recoil was too hefty and got rid of it. Monte Manderino was able to tell me that it had passed through his hands once, but that it had already been converted at that point.

I keep hoping that either the original owner or the maker will step forward, but my hopes are rapidly fading.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: xausa]
      #195407 - 01/12/11 04:12 AM


I find it intersting that Kynoch brass fits perfectly, yet new brass doesn't. Should be able to figure it out. This means there is a different measurement somewhere that needs to be found and solved.

There are a number of normal reasons one might fit and another not fit.

Can you see on the case where they are binding with bolt closure?

Shoulder large?

Base large?

Base to shoulder measurement long?

Base to neck measurement long?

Your dies might not be capable of sizing the case sufficiently to allow easy chambering. This is a common problem with some factory and lots of wildcat dies made to 'other specs', & not made to the case fired from the rifle. This happens with one custom die maker, at times.

Are the necks well lubed inside before sizing? If not, the 'drag' friction of pulling the expander button out throught the neck can easily pull the shoulder foreward, making subsequent chambering difficult - each time.

Overall length (possible long necks) is another factor - does a bare bullet drop into a fired case easily or does it bind at the end of the neck?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: DarylS]
      #195408 - 01/12/11 04:29 AM

Re "I find it intersting that Kynoch brass fits perfectly, yet new brass doesn't. Should be able to figure it out. This means there is a different measurement somewhere that needs to be found and solved."


Just remember that the 404 dimensions have changed over the years and chambers of early guns can be particularly hard to sort out brass for.

It was either here or on AR that someone actually posted a really good summary of what changes occurred and by whom.

Some 404's are notorious for sorting out what fits and what doesn't.

.

Edited by 500Nitro (01/12/11 04:48 AM)

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vagrouser
.300 member


Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 104
Loc: usa
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #195413 - 01/12/11 05:09 AM

Sorry to hear of your troubles xausa. Indeed I asked about dimensional differences b/t Kynoch/Kynamco and other factory cartridges in the 404J and received a lot of great information. Here is the thread over on AR
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/9461097561

See also:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/4411038851?r=4411038851#4411038851
The link to the second thread is embedded in the first, but wanted to make sure you saw it.

Hope you can get it sorted,
Bill

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mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
Loc: usa
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: vagrouser]
      #195421 - 01/12/11 06:15 AM

Xausa,

I think it's a great looking rifle, including the wood. It looks very GH to me, in spite of what Paul Chapman says. Have you run it by Michael Petrov?

As to the chambering problems, I have an early G&H .404 SSB Mauser which also will not chamber modern Kynamco ammo or Norma PH, but will chamber original Kynoch loads as well as RWS solids. I mentioned it to Petrov and he was adamant that it should be left alone. I haven't altered it and don't intend to. I will use old ammo or handloads. Petrov also mentioned that he was aware of an early GH in .505 Gibbs that wouldn't chamber modern ammo (Norma PH).

Anyway - beautiful rifle and $5900 is a very good price. The action ought to be worth $4k.

Best of luck with it and enjoy.

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
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Loc: usa
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: mckinney]
      #195423 - 01/12/11 06:29 AM

Here are some pics of my G&H .404

http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss275/netcurrentassetvalue/IMG_1130.jpg
http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss275/netcurrentassetvalue/IMG_1132.jpg

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: mckinney]
      #195432 - 01/12/11 09:00 AM

Quote:

Anyway - beautiful rifle and $5900 is a very good price. The action ought to be worth $4k.




Actually Cabala's paid the cost of having it shipped to Lon Paul and back and refunded $400 from the original purchase price, so my outlay was somewhat less.

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: xausa]
      #195474 - 01/12/11 10:20 PM

Xausa,

Not sure if this helps but I saw an identical mount to the one on your rifle on a rifle being built by my friend Dave Norin some years ago. I can't remember who he said made the mount for him, but I'm guessing that there can't be all that many people who make this kind of mount? Maybe you could e-mail Dave a link to this thread or send him the pics and ask. Once you know who made the mounts, it may be easier to find out who it was? Again, I don't think there are all that many rifles built with this kind of classic slide on - slide off mount?

Beautiful rifle! Congratulations!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: mckinney]
      #195475 - 01/12/11 10:21 PM

McKinney,

Very, very nice! Hope to see hunting pics here.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #195482 - 01/12/11 11:42 PM

Quote:

I don't think there are all that many rifles built with this kind of classic slide on - slide off mount?



Actually, I have about a dozen other rifles with this kind of scope mount, my favorite, the Griffin & Howe side mount, still being made and installed by G&H after all these years.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: xausa]
      #195486 - 02/12/11 01:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't think there are all that many rifles built with this kind of classic slide on - slide off mount?



Actually, I have about a dozen other rifles with this kind of scope mount




Agree.

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #195496 - 02/12/11 02:58 AM

EUREKA! I have solved the chambering problem. All it took was grinding down the top of the shell holder to allow the fired case to travel a little further into the full length resizing die. Now my only concern is feeding, and a different follower may well cure that.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: xausa]
      #195500 - 02/12/11 03:59 AM

Glad it worked.

Short chamber, long die - it happens. Sometimes minimum and maximum tolerances don't jive well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
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Re: Mystery .404 [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #195509 - 02/12/11 05:18 AM

Thank you Mehul.

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
Loc: usa
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: xausa]
      #195512 - 02/12/11 05:43 AM

Xausa

Going back to the question of who made the rifle, I have been studying the photos again. One feature that catches my eye is the shape of the stock around the bolt release - the way it is formed around the release rather than just being flat. I have seen this feature on other rifles, but I don't know whether it is a signature touch of a particular stocker (Jack Haugh?)or something that a number of stockers used. More research needed......I may have been a bit hasty in saying it looked like GH.

I will keep thinking about it and see if I can come up with anything useful.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: mckinney]
      #195589 - 03/12/11 12:13 AM

Two of the features I have focused on are (1) as you noted, the treatment around the bolt release, and (2) the checkering pattern around the rear of the trigger guard, both of which are quite unusual in my opinion.

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pjaln
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Reged: 08/06/06
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Loc: massachusetts ,U.S.A.
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: xausa]
      #196272 - 10/12/11 11:56 AM

could it be dave miller...paul

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Rule303
.450 member


Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5061
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Mystery .404 [Re: xausa]
      #196284 - 10/12/11 02:18 PM

Glad you have that problem sorted xausa. Good luck with the follower, hopefully that will fix the feeding problem.

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pjaln
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Re: Mystery .404 [Re: Rule303]
      #196295 - 10/12/11 03:51 PM

or maybe Al Lind ...paul

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